Why did Kerry embrace the 911 commission while Bush did not?

[Ivan Seeking]

Please see the thread:

Why Bush must not be re-elected
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=36532


Anything else?

 

[loseyourname]

Aren't we supposed to close threads that cover a topic already discussed in another thread?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I was asking for positive arguments for Kerry as opposed to being against Bush. I was also making the point that so many people are voting against rather than for a candidate; myself included to a large degree. I thought a pro-Kerry thread is entirely appropriate. Even more so in light of the accusations that this election especially is more about negative than positive.

Or do you just object to the Kerry headline?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay, for starters how about, John Kerry…

…has demonstrated leadership in the most adverse conditions. Men who fought side by side in Vietnam support him and stand by him. This speaks to his genuine and high quality of character.

…saw the injustice of Vietnam he led the charge right to the floors of congress. Again, not only do we see his strength of character but also his strengths in leadership. He was so effective that in very short order he was before Congress, and Nixon was paying attention. To alienate Nixon; now that is something to be proud of!

…obviously is a very intelligent person. Brains are good.

….looks cool para-surfing. Okay not really

…understands the need to repair the damage to the US reputation abroad and will work to do so.

…understands the need for diplomacy and cooperation.

…will support value based science and human needs, before flying off to Mars.

…
Teresa Heinz Kerry is very impressive and genuinely adds strength to the ticket. I think she promises to be an...interesting First Lady. I am sure that John Kerry and the rest of us will benefit from her wisdom, savvy, and truthful "blunders".

For the first time I see Edwards as a genuine asset beyond pulling the southern vote: He is going places. Edwards can inspire people. We haven’t seen much of this for awhile. Of course I don’t know much about Edward’s political history yet. He does seem to emerge also as a person of high character. McCain speaks favorably of him; even now.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Actually, a Kerry victory wouldn't bother me so much. I have nothing of the contempt for John as I did Bill Clinton.

But supposing Kerry does win in November. Wait until he has to make a decision that could be unpopular. Would he make the right decision, or would he cater to the polls? Judging by his indecisiveness, my gut feeling is the latter.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I just heard Kerry state that he would immediately implement the 911 commission recommendations.

He would also tell the commission to remain in tact for another 18 months to ensure the proper follow up. I think this shows especially good, clear, practical thinking.

 

[JohnDubYa]

He would also tell the commission to remain in tact for another 18 months to ensure the proper follow up. I think this shows especially good, clear, practical thinking.

I realize you're a supporter, but it's getting a little syrupy, if you know what I mean. I can practically hear the Star Spangled Banner in the background whenever you post your thoughts on John Kerry.

"John Kerry took out the garbage today. This shows his leadership, determination, love of country... Oh say, can you see? By the dawn's early light..."

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, if Bush even supported the 911 commission I might agree. But he doesn't; does he.

He would also tell the commission to remain in tact for another 18 months to ensure the proper follow up. I think this shows especially good, clear, practical thinking.

This is exactly the kind of leadership that we really need.

 

[russ_watters]

I just heard Kerry state that he would immediately implement the 911 commission recommendations.

He would also tell the commission to remain in tact for another 18 months to ensure the proper follow up. I think this shows especially good, clear, practical thinking.

Good, clear, practical oxymoron, that is. If he's going to implement the recommendations now, what are they going to study for the next year and a half?

Also, what does it mean to implement them immediately? You can't just press a button and poof, there's a new federal agency. It takes time and effort. Saying he'd "immediately impliment" the recommendations is utterly meaningless rhetoric.

This is why the conventions are both just marketing BS (I hate marketing). I'm hearing people repeating virtually word-for-word the catch-phrases that are being repeated over and over again at the convention. Are you even listening to yourselves? Have you even considered what the words actually mean (hint: they don't mean anything)?

As much as I hate it when people say it about Americans, but the Conventions more than any other events make Americans look like brainwashed sheep. Poll numbers don't lie: Kerry's poll numbers will go up during the convention as people bob their heads to the catch-phrases and clap at the pre-designated lines (aptly called "applause lines" by speachwriters), then slowly forget about it over the next month, making his poll numbers go back down to where they were a week ago.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Good, clear, practical oxymoron, that is. If he's going to implement the recommendations now, what are they going to study for the next year and a half?

Are you kidding? They would help to oversee the efforts to respond to the report.

Also, what does it mean to implement them immediately? You can't just press a button and poof, there's a new federal agency. It takes time and effort. Saying he'd "immediately impliment" the recommendations is utterly meaningless rhetoric.

Yes, why don't we go play golf instead. Of course, we might actually try starting the process.

This is why the conventions are both just marketing BS (I hate marketing). I'm hearing people repeating virtually word-for-word the catch-phrases that are being repeated over and over again at the convention. Are you even listening to yourselves? Have you even considered what the words actually mean (hint: they don't mean anything)?

As much as I hate it when people say it about Americans, but the Conventions more than any other events make Americans look like brainwashed sheep. Poll numbers don't lie: Kerry's poll numbers will go up during the convention as people bob their heads to the catch-phrases and clap at the pre-designated lines (aptly called "applause lines" by speachwriters), then slowly forget about it over the next month, making his poll numbers go back down to where they were a week ago.

I think the problem is that you don't wish to recognize issues like quality of character, or leadership, or wisdom, since for the last four years they have not applied. No wonder the language seems foreign to you.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Lets' be clear. Russ wants to shame us for a genuine belief in these issues. Any attempt to argue for character is just marketing, according to Russ.

I think these things matter.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Btw, considering that I was only regurgitating all of the hype from the convention, I have watched all of thirty minutes of it - the speech by Edwards and a few minutes the night before. So, no, I wasn't listening to myself sound like the convention hype.

 

[russ_watters]

Are you kidding? They would help to oversee the efforts to respond to the report. [emphasis added]

So he wouldn't really be implimenting the recommendations, just starting to formulate a response? That is, btw, the correct course of action - it's just that he'd never say it. Heck, Kerry didn't even have the chance to read the report before saying he'd implement the recommendations immediately. You don't think that might have been a good idea? Maybe he doesn't agree with all of them - but ehh, who cares, he's acting. [/superhero] Its absurd, meaningless rhetoric.

I think the problem is that you don't wish to recognize issues like quality of character, or leadership, or wisdom, since for the last four years they have not applied. No wonder the language seems foreign to you.

Leadership, character, and wisdom are not words that apply to Kerry or most upper level Democrats. Voting against your beliefs because a bill will win with or without your support (as discussed in another thread), is not leadership, its hypocrisy and cowardace. Decision making by opinion poll (the Clinton White House) is not leadership, its followership. Leadership is making difficult and sometimes unpopular decisions because you think they are right, regardless of the personal consequences. Regardless of whether or not you agree with his decisions (and I don't agree with all of them either), the fact that Bush makes them on his own, and acts on them is leadership.

Again, I must stress that the pre-packaged, meaningless marketing of the DNC will certainly be mirrored at the RNC. And the lack of leadership in politicians is a trait shared by most politicians on both sides of the fence. But by and large, the real leaders are only in the Republican party. Its part of the Democrats core beliefs to make popular decisions, with little regard to whether they are correct decisions.

Lets' be clear. Russ wants to shame us for a genuine belief in these issues. Any attempt to argue for character is just marketing, according to Russ.

What belief? Kerry did not express an opinion about the content of the report. I want to shame you for not paying attention. Do you even realize that you are repeating back virtually word-for-word the taglines you are hearing at the DNC?

Btw, considering that I was only regurgitating all of the hype from the convention, I have watched all of thirty minutes of it

Powerful stuff, that rhetoric. But even if you don't watch much of the convention, the taglines are all repeated for you in the newspaper the next day. Here's USA Today's quote: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-07-28-911-list_x.htm

Kerry, Bush's opponent in the presidential campaign, says Bush should implement the commission's proposals immediately.

And here's yours:

...I just heard Kerry state that he would immediately implement the 911 commission recommendations.

The only substantive difference is one says what Kerry says Bush should do, the other says what Kerry says he would do. Other than that, "implement the commission's proposals immediately" and "immediately implement the 911 commission recommendations" are the exact same words in a different order, minus the "911."

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Russ, are you serious? I often really doubt it.

So he wouldn't really be implimenting the recommendations, just starting to formulate a response? That is, btw, the correct course of action - it's just that he'd never say it. Heck, Kerry didn't even have the chance to read the report before saying he'd implement the recommendations immediately. You don't think that might have been a good idea?

I don't suppose anyone could give him a summary? Give me a break. You can certainly figure that out. Do you even try?

Maybe he doesn't agree with all of them - but ehh, who cares, he's acting. [/superhero] Its absurd, meaningless rhetoric.

Maybe he should go play golf; or he might begin the process. What an idea.

Leadership, character, and wisdom are not words that apply to Kerry or most upper level Democrats.[./quote]

So your opinion is your evidence. Wow, I'm sold. Strong argument!

Voting against your beliefs because a bill will win with or without your support (as discussed in another thread), is not leadership, its hypocrisy and cowardace. Decision making by opinion poll (the Clinton White House) is not leadership,

So, instead of speaking to my specific examples, like leadership while under fire, you use unspecific accusations that have no supporting information. Wow, I'm sold.

Leadership is making difficult and sometimes unpopular decisions because you think they are right, regardless of the personal consequences. Regardless of whether or not you agree with his decisions (and I don't agree with all of them either), the fact that Bush makes them on his own, and acts on them is leadership.

]

If Bush's decisions were only in our interest and not that of his corrupt, brothers of the oil. How is the "Condi" Rice oil tanker running these days? Making good money I assume? Have they filed charges against Cheney yet?

Again, I must stress that the pre-packaged, meaningless marketing of the DNC will certainly be mirrored at the RNC. And the lack of leadership in politicians is a trait shared by most politicians on both sides of the fence. But by and large, the real leaders are only in the Republican party.

Like who, Bush? Who? Bush is their guy so this must be their best.

Next!

Its part of the Democrats core beliefs to make popular decisions, with little regard to whether they are correct decisions.

Russ, this statement is ludicrous; like most of what you say in this forum when pressed.

Okay I can play like that. All repulican politicians are rich and heartless.

 

[GENIERE]

Russ Waters: “Its part of the Democrats core beliefs to make popular decisions, with little regard to whether they are correct decisions”

Absolutely correct assuming “ Democratics core beliefs” exist. If so what are they?

 

[Dissident Dan]

Absolutely correct assuming “ Democratics core beliefs” exist. If so what are they?

social justice, environment, tolerance and multiculturalism, populism, nonhawkishness

 

[Ivan Seeking]

John Kerry's Military Records
and
George W. Bush's Military Records

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp

 

[meteor]

As I'm craving for a world ruled by common sense and justice, and not by madness and the law of the jungle, I wish that Kerry win the presidential elections

 

[Gokul43201]

I may have said something like this before...but who here thinks John Kerry will sit about doing nothing - reading 'My Pet Rabbit' to schoolkids, under the circumstances, counts as nothing - for 7 minutes, after he has been informed that the United States is under attack ?

I don't ! Does that count as a positive ? (Really, it shouldn't, but considering the alternative...)

Case closed... at least when the Right wants to bring up the strength, courage and determination line.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Kerry embraced the 911 commission. Bush did not support the commission. Time and again Bush bows to public pressure; the commission, his and Cheneys testimony, Condi's testimony. He flip flops based on polls. Why, because he is usually wrong. Now, in response to the polls and Kerry's example by argument of how one should lead, Bush embraces the commission and turns against the war council. Do we see the beginning of the administration collapsing under the pressure of falling numbers? Might Bush be finally straying from the pack in desparation? Do I hear the fat lady singing?

His early support for the 911 commission is an example of Kerry's wisdom. This panel is considered to be perhaps the most credible non-partisan gathering and results in anyones memory - dedicated and bright and seasoned men and women doing their best to know how to protect our country given as much information as possible. This is one reason why I feel that the person can be more important that any particular issue. The issues change. The character and capablities of the person is more a constant.

We can trust Kerry to make the wise choices when times are tough. Brains are good! Depth of character is good.