Revisiting the Hockey Stick Controversy: M&M Critique of MBH98 Climate Index

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the critique of the Mann et al. (1998) climate index, commonly referred to as the "Hockey Stick" graph, by Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick. Participants explore the implications of the M&M critique, the methodology used in the original study, and the broader context of climate policy and scientific communication.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference the M&M critique, suggesting that it highlights discrepancies in the methodology of MBH98, particularly regarding the use of tree ring data.
  • Others question the characterization of the Hockey Stick as a mainstay of the IPCC, suggesting it may not hold that status.
  • A participant mentions the potential impact of the M&M critique on climate policy discussions, particularly in the Netherlands, where skepticism about global warming is noted.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the validity of Mann's work, suggesting that if the criticisms are correct, they indicate misleading conclusions.
  • Another participant posits that while MBH may not have intended to mislead, their choices in methodology could have led to biased results.
  • Discussion includes the role of bristlecone pine data in the Hockey Stick graph, with questions raised about the reliability of these proxies and their influence on the reconstruction.
  • Links to external resources and interviews are shared to provide additional context and information on the ongoing debate.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with some supporting the M&M critique and others defending Mann's methodology. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the validity of the claims made by either side.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific data series and the unresolved nature of the statistical methods used in both the original and critique papers. The discussion reflects ongoing debates in climate science and the interpretation of paleoclimate data.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in climate science, paleoclimatology, and the intersection of scientific research with public policy may find this discussion relevant.

Andre
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http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/trc.html

Remember the Hockeystick of Mann et al, the mainstay of IPCC?

The prepublication.

THE M&M CRITIQUE OF THE MBH98 NORTHERN HEMISPHERE CLIMATE INDEX: UPDATE AND IMPLICATIONS
Stephen McIntyre, Ross McKitrick

ABSTRACT
The differences between the results of McIntyre and McKitrick [2003] and Mann et al. [1998] can be reconciled by only two series: the Gaspé cedar ring width series and the first principal component (PC1) from the North American tree ring network. We show that in each case MBH98 methodology differed from what was stated in print and the differences resulted in lower early 15th century index values. In the case of the North American PC1, MBH98 modified the PC algorithm so that the calculation was no longer centered, but claimed that the calculation was “conventional”. The modification caused the PC1 to be dominated by a subset of bristlecone pine ring width series which are widely doubted to be reliable temperature proxies. In the case of the Gaspé cedars, MBH98 did not use archived data, but made an extrapolation, unique within the corpus of over 350 series, and is represented the start date of the series. The recent Corrigendum by Mann et al. denied that these differences between the stated methods and actual methods have any effect, a claim we show is false. We also refute the various arguments by Mann et al. purporting to salvage their reconstruction, including their claims of robustness and statistical skill. Finally, we comment on several policy issues arising from this controversy: the lack of consistent requirements for disclosure of data and methods in paleoclimate journals, and the need to recognize the limitations of journal peer review as a quality control standard when scientific studies are used for public policy.

Is revolution on?
 
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Revolution? Maybe. But $10 says certain posters here still link to the hockeystick anyways.

I'm not sure I'd call it the mainstay of the IPCC though.
 
Well If you would want to convince the President, what would you put in figure one of your presentation?

http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/005.htm
 
The Dutch paper "Natuur Wetenschap & Techniek" opens the hostilities openly.

http://www.natutech.nl/nieuwsDetail.lasso?ID=2566&-session=NTses:D42BBCBC00FA5594DE6EC497AA7DC17E

"Bewijs achter Kyoto deugt niet": The proof of Kyoto is faulty

It narrates about the paper of M&M linked to previously. The result is a climate policy re-evalution congress shortly with this on the agenda.

At least the discussion is on, which is quite incredible in The Netherlands, doubting Global Warming, that is.

Quite interesting is: http://www.natutech.nl/nieuwsDetail.lasso?ID=2564&-session=NTses:D42BBCBC00FA5594DE6EC497AA7DC17E the questions to MBH and the answers of Michael Mann:

http://www.natutech.nl/nieuwsDetail.lasso?ID=2565&-session=NTses:D42BBCBC00FA5594DE6EC497AA7DC17E
 
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This may help to explain what's going on:

http://www.marshall.org/pdf/materials/188.pdf

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/Climate_L.pdf

edit: added a second link
 
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ANDRE
Having actually reading these papers, "something i urge people to do",
I find myself at a loss, If the criticisms of Mann's papers are correct, and
they seem to be, then all he has done is produce a load of public ally miss
leading mumbo jumbo.
 
Well at least the discussion is on. An interesting page here as well

http://davidappell.com/archives/00000579.htm#comments

I don't think that MBH actually intend to produce misleading information, but it may have been a slippery slope with several slightly biased choices together produced something unrealistic to the neutral eye.
 
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http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/MM-W05-background.pdf

So it's all about that mysterious Bristle cone pine. Have a look http://www.eman-rese.ca/eman/reports/publications/Forest/images/page16.gif . Note that the undamaged pine tree continues on an even pace trough time, whereas the "strip bark" damaged version starts an increased growth.

Now carefully avoiding the "post hoc" fallacy but could there be a correlation between damage like stripping bark and reactive abnormal growth? And if so, could the hockeystick be mostly based on the damage of trees?
 
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  • #10
For the Dutch and Belgians,

Steve McIntyre is being interviewed right now to be on Dutch Television: KRO Netwerk tonite, I believe some 9:30 PM.
 

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