News 824 New Armored Humvees sitting in lot in Kuwait

[edward]

It must be cheaper for the military to replace soldiers than Humvees. There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of military snafu and bureaucratic bungling.

It is my understanding that the new humvees also need an electronics upgrade that will require two months to complete. I have also read that the company in Ohio which makes the armor for the hummers has refused to license its technology to other companies, so that production could be speeded up. Are we at war or are we just playing corporate games in Iraq?

Washington -- House lawmakers grilled Army officials Thursday about 824 top-of-the-line armored humvees sitting idle in a Kuwait parking lot at a time when Army and Marine Corps forces in Iraq need them for protection against roadside bombs and insurgent attacks.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/10/21/MNGH7FBR5D1.DTL

 

[Smurf]

Are we at war or are we just playing corporate games in Iraq?

*sigh* I'll give the same answer I gave last time someone asked that, and the time before that, and the time before that, and the time before that, and the... oh screw it.

 

[edward]

Only American soldiers travel in humvees in Iraq.

Yet the Bush administration has not made a top priority of replacing the Humvee with a modern armored vehicle.

When Sec. of Defense Donald Rumsfeld visited Iraq last year, he traveled in an armored Rhino Runner, borrowed from the Halliburton Corporation, made by an American manufacturer in Israel. This “rolling fortress of steel,” Moss wrote, costs $250,000, while an armored humvee averages $140,000.

Members of Congress who have visited Iraq prefer the M1117 made in Louisiana by Texatron that costs $700,000.

State department officials travel in the Cougar, a $630,000 vehicle made by a small company called Force Protection.

 

[edward]

It turns out that the Ohio company which manufactures the aromor plate for the humvees, and refuses to share it's technology and production, has friends in high places.

The New York Times had two very enlightening stories yesterday worth mentioning. The first discussed the Pentagon's refusal to supply the troops with safer humvees. Turns out there's an exclusive humvee production contract held by an inept company called O'Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt. Not surprisingly, Warren B. Kanders, the CEO of O'Gara's parent company, Armor Holdings, was a big contributor to the Bush campaign. The failure to produce the humvees needed to keep our troops safe is in part a result of O'Gara's lobbying to keep their exclusive contract with our military. From NYTimes:

http://www.freewilliamsburg.com/archives/2005/06/ogarahess_eisen.html

 

[cronxeh]

We should strap our politicians to electrical chairs, so that when they conduct some sort of corrupt behavior, the nation can take a vote on it and execute them right on the spot. Oh, and I'm serious

 

[Gokul43201]

I have also read that the company in Ohio which makes the armor for the hummers has refused to license its technology to other companies, so that production could be speeded up.

The company is, IMO, entirely within its rights to do that. It's the Govt's job to find more sources if it wants to keep the troops safer.

 

[Art]

The company is, IMO, entirely within its rights to do that. It's the Govt's job to find more sources if it wants to keep the troops safer.

How can the gov't find new sources if the company owns the patent and will not license it?

 

[faust9]

How can the gov't find new sources if the company owns the patent and will not license it?

Governments can take over patents in times of need. War generally falls under this category.

 

[Art]

Governments can take over patents in times of need. War generally falls under this category.

My understanding is that under the international TRIPS agreement there must be a national emergency before the gov't can override a patent but besides that it was simply the apparently self-contradictory posting by Gokul I was questioning.

 

[edward]

This situation has cost the lives of a lot of young soldiers. To me that is a national emergency.

During the first year of WWII U.S. companies banded together and turned out 9,000 Sherman tanks. Yet it took over a year to build 1000 armored humvees.

 

[edward]

The company is, IMO, entirely within its rights to do that. It's the Govt's job to find more sources if it wants to keep the troops safer.

Actually that deciscion was up to the federal government. They choose to buckle under to the lobbying of campaign contributor Armor Holdings inc.

Armor Holdings, the manufacturer of the defective body armor that was first used in Iraq, also got the contract to manufacture the replacement body armor.

 

[Townsend]

Armor Holdings, the manufacturer of the defective body armor that was first used in Iraq, also got the contract to manufacture the replacement body armor.

What kind of idiot would do that? Defective body armor is a deal breaker in my book.

 

[edward]

I also question the fact that Armor Holdings, which manufactures the humvee armor in Akron Ohio, got the contract just before the 2004 election.

Sept. 15, 2004 - Diversified manufacturer Armor Holdings Inc. received a $135 million contract award to provide additional M1114 Up-Armored HMMWVs to the U.S. Army. The total contract is now over $650 million.

 

[Smurf]

3 things:

This situation has cost the lives of a lot of young soldiers. To me that is a national emergency.
During the first year of WWII U.S. companies banded together and turned out 9,000 Sherman tanks. Yet it took over a year to build 1000 armored humvees.

Yeah, and the Sherman was a real masterpiece too.

Governments can take over patents in times of need. War generally falls under this category.

Is the US legally at war though? I though? Has congress ratified it yet? (do they need to? I'm not sure what the american system is like)

Yet the Bush administration has not made a top priority of replacing the Humvee with a modern armored vehicle.

You know, it seems to me that it's the same people who complain about the war costing so much $$ that also complain about it not using expensive-enough equipment.

We should strap our politicians to electrical chairs, so that when they conduct some sort of corrupt behavior, the nation can take a vote on it and execute them right on the spot. Oh, and I'm serious

That's stupid. I'm serious too.

 

[faust9]

3 things:
Yeah, and the Sherman was a real masterpiece too.
Is the US legally at war though? I though? Has congress ratified it yet? (do they need to? I'm not sure what the american system is like)
You know, it seems to me that it's the same people who complain about the war costing so much $$ that also complain about it not using expensive-enough equipment.
That's stupid. I'm serious too.

Yes, the US is legally at war. Just like the US (SC ruled as much way back in the day) was at war in Viet Nam. Congress has authorized the war by funding it. The president has a legal "right" if you will to use the military for 90 days before congressional acquescence is needed. We have been there for what, two years? Congress is paying the bills thus they have accepted the conflict as a war.

 

[edward]

Another irony is that there was a far superior armored vehicle which had gone into limited production in 1999. It is the M1117 mentioned below. The Bush Administration canceled the contract in 2002, just before the invasion of Iraq. There are two other vehicles available, the Rhino, and the Cougar. these vehicles are in Iraq in limited numbers and are used for visiting VIP's

Among other setbacks, the M1117 lost its Pentagon money just before the invasion, and the manufacturer is now scrambling to fill rush orders from the military. The company making one of the V-shaped vehicles, the Cougar, said it had to lay off highly skilled welders last year as it waited for the contract to be completed. Even then it was paid only enough to fill half the order.

 

[edward]

You know, it seems to me that it's the same people who complain about the war costing so much $$ that also complain about it not using expensive-enough equipment.

I have seen a lot of complaints about the overall cost of the war and the rebuilding of iraq, but I have seen no one complain about the cost of defending our troops.
The cost of the equipment used on the ground in Iraq is only a very small fraction of the cost of the war. Now what the government is paying Halliburton, that is quite another story.

 

[Smurf]

I have seen a lot of complaints about the overall cost of the war and the rebuilding of iraq, but I have seen no one complain about the cost of defending our troops.
The cost of the equipment used on the ground in Iraq is only a very small fraction of the cost of the war. Now what the government is paying Halliburton, that is quite another story.

So what people are really complaining about is funds being used to rebuild the country they just destroyed? They'd rather buy some fancy new guns...

 

[edward]

So what people are really complaining about is funds being used to rebuild the country they just destroyed? They'd rather buy some fancy new guns...

Actually my biggest complaint is that there are millions of dollars which went to companies like Haliburton, that are not accounted for. So far not much of Iraq has been rebuilt.

I am not at all in favor of the war. This is a Dick Cheney, Donal Rumsfeld war that was promoted by their spokesperson, GW Bush.

On the other hand I will always support the troops on the ground. They are a bunch of ordinary kids thrust into an extraordinary situation. I have been there and done that in my youth. I will always support the ordinary soldier, but not necessarily the tasks that they are ordered to carry out.

 

[Gokul43201]

How can the gov't find new sources if the company owns the patent and will not license it?

I didn't say "new sources for the same patented armor". There are dozens of different grades of armor out there made by dozens of different manufacturers.

Going back to the same company that made faulty armor ??! That's just plain ridiculous !

 

[Townsend]

Going back to the same company that made faulty armor ??! That's just plain ridiculous !

I know...I really cannot understand this. There is something going on there that we don't know...

 

[Smurf]

I know...I really cannot understand this. There is something going on there that we don't know...

Yeah, I wonder what that is? I mean, in a war started for corporate profit, where we practically shower corporations in dollars even after they don't do anything with them, and then when they mess up go back to them and give them loads of money again... What could possibly be going on here?

 

[Astronuc]

I know...I really cannot understand this. There is something going on there that we don't know...

Maker of bullet proof vests (which aren't) may face charges
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=90984

http://www.napo.org/pr/BulletProofVestItems/July27_2004.htm

The National Association of Police Organizations, Inc. (“NAPO”) has filed lawsuits against Second Chance Body Armor, Inc. and Armor Holdings, Inc. Both companies have made and marketed Zylon body armor to American police agencies and officers. (Armor Holdings is the parent company of Safariland, American Body Armor, Monadnock and Protech, among other companies.) NAPO has also sued Toyobo, a Japanese company that is the world’s sole producer of Zylon fiber, and which sold (and continues to sell) Zylon fiber knowing that it is used in the production of soft body armor for U.S. police. Zylon fiber has been shown to degrade faster than anticipated, thus leaving vests using the fiber at risk of penetration by bullets the vests are rated to stop.

 

[Astronuc]

At this point, one really has to wonder what the Bush/Cheney War Machine is really costing the US, and why is Congress allowing it to continue.

I mean the billions of dollars going to Halliburton and other companies, while vital equipment is sitting on the sidelines! And VIPS running around in very expensive alternatives? Post #3.

And this is acceptable to the majority of American people and Congress?

And Bush is telling the US public, that his administration is doing all it can for the service personnel?

It seems like the Bush administration is doing all it can to funnel money to its political supporters.

And will it still cost roughly $100 billion/yr, and after 10 years this is $1 trillion?

 

[Danger]

Maker of bullet proof vests (which aren't) may face charges

You had me worried for a second there. My vest is by Second Chance, but luckily it's Kevlar rather than that other stuff. It's rated for up to .44 magnum handgun protection, but the test patch (supplied with the vest) stopped a 7mm Remington point-blank. Of course, getting hit by something like that would probably kill you anyhow because all of those broken ribs would be poking holes in your heart and lungs .

 

[Townsend]

It's rated for up to .44 magnum handgun protection, but the test patch (supplied with the vest) stopped a 7mm Remington point-blank.

That is crazy! I can punch holes in 1/2 thick steel with a 7mm Rem from 100 yards away.

I think your right about it not mattering if it was able to stop the bullet. It would likely push into you about 8 inches or so, which is more than enough to kill you.

 

[Skyhunter]

I know...I really cannot understand this. There is something going on there that we don't know...

This is business as usual. The company with the most powerful lobby gets the contract. This is why I hope Americans pay special attention to the Tom DeLay trial. He derived most of his power from control of the lobbyists, not from being majority leader.

 

[Astronuc]

The more I think about this issue the more I am fuming.

How dare Bush send troops into harms way without the necessary protection, and especially after he himself avoided service in Vietnam, as did so many other politicians in Congress and Senate.

As far as I can tell, he had decided to go after Saddam before 2000, and Cheney lined up support. They both misled Congress and the people - in fact it appears they conspired to wage war on a foreign government for personal gain - and if that's not an impeachable offense I don't know what is.

I didn't particularly care for Kerry, but I don't think Kerry would have done that.

I agree however that Saddam had to go, but not the way Bush and Cheney went about it. At least they should have planned for a protracted struggle.

 

[edward]

This is business as usual. The company with the most powerful lobby gets the contract. This is why I hope Americans pay special attention to the Tom DeLay trial. He derived most of his power from control of the lobbyists, not from being majority leader.

Business as usual has an irony here. The Armor Holdings factory that manufactures the humvee armor plate, is located in Summit county Ohio. Summit county Ohio is also the home of Diebold.

 

[devil-fire]

is there a shortage of humvees in iraq right now? surely no one would order soldiers to do the same patrol on foot that would be done in a humvee

 

[russ_watters]

Did anyone bother to read the article? Anyone care to comment on what it says?

 

[kat]

you mean like this portion:

Harvey and Cody said the service had decided to keep the new humvees parked in Kuwait until January, when the vehicles would be taken over by arriving troops from the 4th Infantry Division, currently training at Fort Hood, Texas. Before promising to take another look at the plan, the Army officials defended the timetable as the most efficient use of the equipment and troops, adding that it had been approved by U.S. commanders in Iraq.

Cody added that the new humvees are so technically advanced that 3rd Infantry Division troops would have to train on them for up to two weeks. Commanders were reluctant to relinquish their troops for training at time when they have pressing missions, he said, such as providing security for Iraqi elections.

Another case of politicians second guessing commanders on the ground?

 

[Skyhunter]

Business as usual has an irony here. The Armor Holdings factory that manufactures the humvee armor plate, is located in Summit county Ohio. Summit county Ohio is also the home of Diebold.

Ohio is a microcosm of the Republican cronyism and corruption that is now being exposed on a national scale. Before this is over Bush's ratings may match that of the Republican governor of Ohio. Last I heard 17 out of 100 approved of his job performance.

My brother-in-law went to work for a start-up company installing networks for the government. The head of the company had political ties so they got inflated contracts to install networks for the State, until the boss got drunk and went on a rampage. He was arrested for domestic violence and his "friends found it to be expedient to dis-associate themselves from him so he lost the contracts. Since that was about the companies only revenue they went belly up.

 

[Skyhunter]

you mean like this portion:

Harvey and Cody said the service had decided to keep the new humvees parked in Kuwait until January, when the vehicles would be taken over by arriving troops from the 4th Infantry Division, currently training at Fort Hood, Texas. Before promising to take another look at the plan, the Army officials defended the timetable as the most efficient use of the equipment and troops, adding that it had been approved by U.S. commanders in Iraq.
Cody added that the new humvees are so technically advanced that 3rd Infantry Division troops would have to train on them for up to two weeks. Commanders were reluctant to relinquish their troops for training at time when they have pressing missions, he said, such as providing security for Iraqi elections.

Another case of politicians second guessing commanders on the ground?

I for one would like to know what could be so advanced that it takes 2 weeks to learn. But it is probably classified.

And I think the soldiers would rather have the armor than not.

135,000 troops and 1000 can't be spared to train on how to operate a glorified jeep?

Sounds like just another excuse for incompetence.

 

[kat]

I for one would like to know what could be so advanced that it takes 2 weeks to learn. But it is probably classified.
And I think the soldiers would rather have the armor than not.
135,000 troops and 1000 can't be spared to train on how to operate a glorified jeep?
Sounds like just another excuse for incompetence.

and now...it sounds to me like a civilian trying to second guess on the ground commanders.

 

[Gokul43201]

and now...it sounds to me like a civilian trying to second guess on the ground commanders.

kat, if the DoD did screw up, do you think we'd be likely to hear admissions of that from the commanders ?

 

[edward]

I for one would like to know what could be so advanced that it takes 2 weeks to learn. But it is probably classified.
And I think the soldiers would rather have the armor than not.
135,000 troops and 1000 can't be spared to train on how to operate a glorified jeep?
Sounds like just another excuse for incompetence.

I just love the excuses that upper level DOD and Rumsfeld come up with.

The new Humvees come with the same safety upgrades that will later be installed in existing vehicles. Those upgrades are listed below.

From DefenceTalk.com

Land Forces
Army Continues New Humvee Safety Upgrades
By US Army

URL of this article: http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/printer_3462.php
Tue, 20 Sep 2005, 09:15



CAMP ARIFJAN, Kuwait: The Army is responding to the War Fighter’s request for new equipment to enhance combat operations and increase safety, by installing five upgrades to Humvees at forward repair sites in Southwest Asia.

Pentagon officials quickly approved adding: a fire suppression system, improved seat restraints, an intercom system, a gunner’s restraint, and single movement door locks for all Humvees in Iraq.

Initially, the upgrades will be installed in Humvees, but the Army is adapting some of the new equipment to other medium and heavy tactical vehicles.

Adding intercom systems to tactical vehicles with turret gun mounts will improve Soldiers’ ability to communicate when under fire, officials said.

The two week training period is total garbage talk.

 

[Gokul43201]

Ohio is a microcosm of the Republican cronyism and corruption that is now being exposed on a national scale. Before this is over Bush's ratings may match that of the Republican governor of Ohio. Last I heard 17 out of 100 approved of his job performance.

Close. <sorry for the brief digression>

http://www.10tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3926685

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) - Gov. Bob Taft's already-feeble approval rating among Ohioans has fallen to 15 percent, a new poll indicates.

The poll, conducted by The Columbus Dispatch, finds support for Taft lower than the three most unpopular U.S. presidents in the history of polling and possibly the lowest of any Ohio governor.

The Republican governor's approval rating is worse than that of President Truman after he fired Gen. Douglas MacArthur, President Carter during the Iran hostage crisis or President Nixon during Watergate.

Taft was convicted in August of four misdemeanor ethics convictions for failing to report gifts and golf outings and has presided over the state's wide-ranging investment scandal. Three-fourths of the respondents who identified themselves as Republicans disapproved of Taft's performance.

Getting back to the humvees : anyone remember in Dec 2004 when Tennessee Army National Guard Spc. Tom Wilson asked Rumsfeld (in Kuwait) why the Army didn't have enough reinforced Humvees, Rumsfeld replied : "You go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time." That left a very sour taste in many people's mouths.

Up to this time, the Army had been working for over a year, to gradually increase the number of armored Humvees in Iraq. But Rumsfeld's encounter with Wilson seems to have helped enormously : a couple of days later, on Dec. 10, the Army asked the company producing factory-armored Humvees to boost its production by more than 20%.

Coincidence ?

 

[kat]

Edward, it appears to me that in one instance we are speaking of new humvees and then in your last quote we are talking of new upgrades to old humvees.

 

[edward]

Edward, it appears to me that in one instance we are speaking of new humvees and then in your last quote we are talking of new upgrades to old humvees.

The new humvees sitting dormant in Kuwait came from the factory with the upgrades. All or portions of the upgrades will be installed on existing vehicles when they are pulled out of service and transported to Kuwait for repairs in civilian operated facilities.

 

[GENIERE]

When the commanders in Somalia asked for Bradley Fighting Vehicles, the Clinton Administration turned them down.

This led to a mission involving jeeps and other available transportation, that led to marines being trapped in a village, that led to a rescue mission involving a Blackhawk helicopter that was shot down, that led to Clinton to do what he does so well i.e., cut, run, and make a speech.

 

[edward]

When the commanders in Somalia asked for Bradley Fighting Vehicles, the Clinton Administration turned them down.
This led to a mission involving jeeps and other available transportation, that led to marines being trapped in a village, that led to a rescue mission involving a Blackhawk helicopter that was shot down, that led to Clinton to do what he does so well i.e., cut, run, and make a speech.

That has nothing to do with humvees in Iraq. It is also totally oranges and apples. How long do you conservatives feel it will be necessary for you to go keep bringing up Clinton as an excuse for the current administrations five year long list falilures? You are the same people who called operation Desert Fox, "wagging the dog."

 

[Townsend]

That has nothing to do with humvees in Iraq. It is also totally oranges and apples. How long do you conservatives feel it will be necessary for you to go keep bringing up Clinton as an excuse for the current administrations five year long list falilures? You are the same people who called operation Desert Fox, "wagging the dog."

What does "wagging the dog" mean?

 

[edward]

What does "wagging the dog" mean?

The expression came from a movie and was applied to Clinton because he was about to face impeachment.

Less than two weeks before election day, a scandal erupts that threatens to cripple the President's bid for a second term. But before the incident can cause irreparable damage, a mysterious fixer is called to the White House. The ultimate spin doctor, Conrad Brean (Robert DeNiro) has the uncanny ability to manipulate politics, the press and most importantly, the American people.

http://www.newline.com/sites/wagthedog/Story/index.html
Operation Desert Fox was a success despite the criticism.

 

[Townsend]

The expression came from a movie and was applied to Clinton because he was about to face impeachment.

But what does it mean?

Operation Desert Fox was a success despite the criticism.

I know...I was with http://www.lemoore.navy.mil/vfa-94/ at the time.

After a very short turnaround, the Mighty Shrikes found themselves flying in Southern Iraq enforcing the NO FLY ZONE. The Mighty Shrikes were key participants in Operation VIGILANT SENTINEL. In October 1995, the squadron transferred to USS KITTY HAWK under the direction of Commander, Cruiser-Destroyer Group FIVE. Following another short turnaround training cycle, the Mighty Shrikes deployed aboard USS KITTY HAWK on 10 October 1996 to the Arabian Gulf in support of Operation SOUTHERN WATCH. On 13 May 1997, the Mighty Shrikes transferred to USS CARL VINSON (CVN-70) under the direction of Commander, Carrier Group THREE. The Mighty Shrikes deployed aboard USS CARL VINSON on 10 November 1998 to the Arabian Gulf in support of Operations DESERT FOX and SOUTHERN WATCH.

 

[edward]

But what does it mean?
I know...I was with http://www.lemoore.navy.mil/vfa-94/ at the time.

It means that the tail wags the dog. It was the actual name of the movie about a prez who was in trouble.

WOW you were there, you just gained a big chunk of my respect.

 

[Townsend]

WOW you were there, you just gained a big chunk of my respect.

It's not that big of a deal really...it was life as usual for the most part except that the jets would leave with much more ordinance and the operational tempo was much higher. The only exciting thing that happened was when the Tomcat squadron in our air wing –cag 11- engaged the Iraq fighters and launched the phoenix missiles at them.

From what I understand, the missiles did not even get a chance to hit their targets because the Iraqi fighters took off, burned up all their fuel, and crashed trying to get away.

 

[edward]

It's not that big of a deal really...it was life as usual for the most part except that the jets would leave with much more ordinance and the operational tempo was much higher. The only exciting thing that happened was when the Tomcat squadron in our air wing –cag 11- engaged the Iraq fighters and launched the phoenix missiles at them.

From what I understand, the missiles did not even get a chance to hit their targets because the Iraqi fighters took off, burned up all their fuel, and crashed trying to get away.

 

[Townsend]

Why do I get the feeling you know more about this then you're letting on?

 

[FredGarvin]

When the commanders in Somalia asked for Bradley Fighting Vehicles, the Clinton Administration turned them down.
This led to a mission involving jeeps and other available transportation, that led to marines being trapped in a village, that led to a rescue mission involving a Blackhawk helicopter that was shot down, that led to Clinton to do what he does so well i.e., cut, run, and make a speech.

Ummm...that's not the course of events. The original operation was an attempt to grab one of the bigger warlords in the town during a daylight raid. That was the original problem. The whole debacle strted by incorrectly utilizing the units in country. Task Force 160 is a unit that trains and operates best at night (hence their nickname Nightstalkers) and so their tactics are best suited for night operations. That was where two UH-60's were shot down. The subsequent rescues then got messed up as the UN was the ones with armored vehicles and them having to rescue the rescuers.

You may now resume your regularly scheduled thread.