A Clarification on the Summation symbol

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    Summation Symbol
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical properties of summation symbols, particularly in the context of matrix p-norms. Participants explore the validity of manipulating summation expressions and the implications of such manipulations in proofs related to the matrix 1-norm.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the manipulation of summation symbols in a proof regarding matrix p-norms, questioning whether it is valid to separate sums when one term is dependent on multiple indices.
  • Another participant argues that the expression \(\sum_{i=1}^n |a_{ik}|\) does not make sense due to the index variable for a different sum.
  • Some participants suggest that the confusion may stem from typographical errors in the source material, including potential misprints and incorrect use of equality versus inequality.
  • A participant provides a reformulation of the summation, clarifying that the second sum is dependent on the first, which may help in understanding the manipulation.
  • Further discussion includes how the maximum function is applied in the context of the matrix 1-norm and how certain terms can be treated as factors in the summation.
  • One participant summarizes the reasoning behind the manipulation of sums, explaining how constants can be factored out of the summation.
  • Another participant expresses gratitude for the clarifications provided, indicating that the explanations helped resolve some of their confusion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the validity of the summation manipulations, with some asserting that the expressions do not make sense while others provide justifications for the manipulations. The discussion remains unresolved on certain points, particularly regarding the interpretation of the summation terms.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the clarity of the original sources referenced, including potential typographical errors and the dependence on specific definitions of the terms involved in the summations.

relinquished™
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Hi guys,

I know this may sound so "newbieish", but I really need some clarification. While resaerching over the net I came across a proof on a derivation of the Matrix p-norms. While reading, I stumbled upon this part of the proof:

[tex] <br /> \| Ax \|_1 \leq \sum^n_{i=1} \left| \sum^n_{k=1} a_{ik}x_k \right| = \left( \sum^n_{k=1} |x_k| \right) \left( \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ik}| \right)<br /> \quad (1)[/tex]

I am confused when I came upon this. I know that


[tex] \left( \sum_j a_j \right) \left(\sum_k b_k\right) = \sum_j \sum_k a_j b_k \quad (2)[/tex]

But in (1), the [tex]b_k[/tex] term is given by [tex]a_{ik}[/tex]. Is it possible to "split" the two summation symbols into a product of two sums even though it's clear that [tex]a_{ik}[/tex] is dependent on both i and k?

All help is appreciated

Thanks,

Reli~
 
Last edited:
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Seems wrong to me. [itex]\sum_{i = 1}^n |a_{ik}|[/itex] doesn't make any sense, because k is an index variable for a different sum.
 
Was this found on a webpage? Do you have the link? It's probably just some typsetting problems, parenthesis where they don't belong (also an equality which should be an inequality), but it would be good to see the next few lines to make sure.
 
shmoe said:
Was this found on a webpage? Do you have the link? It's probably just some typsetting problems, parenthesis where they don't belong (also an equality which should be an inequality), but it would be good to see the next few lines to make sure.

Yes, this was found on a webpage. I was reading the part for the Derivation of the Matrix 1-norm (column sum norm) on this page.

http://www.maths.lancs.ac.uk/~gilbert/m306a/node6.html

Here, they state that

[tex] <br /> \| A \|_1 \leq \max \limits_{\| x\|_1 = 1} \sum^n_{i=1} \left| \sum^n_{k=1} a_{ik}x_k \right| = \max \limits_{\| x\|_1 = 1} \left( \sum^n_{k=1} |x_k| \right) \left( \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ik}| \right)\quad<br /> [/tex]

Here, they equated after applying the triangle equality, which implied that

[tex] \max \limits_{\| x\|_1 = 1} \sum^n_{i=1} \left| \sum^n_{k=1} a_{ik}x_k \right| = \max \limits_{\| x\|_1 = 1} \left( \sum^n_{k=1} |x_k| \right) \left( \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ik}| \right)\quad[/tex]

I also thought this was a misprint, or maybe it had something to do with the maximum function. But then I visited another webpage just to make sure.

http://web.umr.edu/~hilgers/classes/CS328/notes/norm/node7.html

Again, in their derivation of the matrix 1-norm, it states that

[tex] \|Ax\|_1 \leq \sum^n_{i=1}\sum^n_{j=1} |a_{ij}||x_j| = \leq \sum^n_{j=1} |x_j| \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ij}| \leq C \sum^n_{j=1} |x_j|[/tex]

They did the exact same thing - "split" the summation so that the [tex]\sum^n_{k=1} |x_k|[/tex] could be "factored".

I'm really confused. All help is appreciated.

Reli~
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It's fine, and different from what you've written. Let me add some parenthesis:

[tex]\sum^n_{i=1} \left| \sum^n_{k=1} a_{ik}x_k \right| \leq \sum^n_{i=1} \sum^n_{k=1} |a_{ik}||x_k|<br /> =\sum^n_{k=1}\left( |x_k| \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ik}| \right)[/tex]

The second sum is "inside" the first, it still depends on k. Does this clarify?
 
shmoe said:
It's fine, and different from what you've written. Let me add some parenthesis:

[tex]\sum^n_{i=1} \left| \sum^n_{k=1} a_{ik}x_k \right| \leq \sum^n_{i=1} \sum^n_{k=1} |a_{ik}||x_k|<br /> =\sum^n_{k=1}\left( |x_k| \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ik}| \right)[/tex]

The second sum is "inside" the first, it still depends on k. Does this clarify?

Well, it is right, however, what I'm really troubled about is how they treated [tex]\sum^n_{k=1} |x_k|[/tex] in the first website (OR [tex]\sum^n_{j=1} |x_j|[/tex] in the second website)

This is what they did after they "split" the summation"

Website 1

[tex] <br /> \| A \|_1 \leq \max \limits_{\| x\|_1 = 1} \sum^n_{k=1} |x_k| \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ij}| \\<br /> \leq \max \limits_{\| x\|_1 = 1} \sum^n_{k=1} |x_k| \max \limits_{j} \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ij}| = \max \limits_{j} \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ij}|<br /> [/tex]

Again, for Website #2,

EDIT: Changed subscripts from k to j

[tex] <br /> \| Ax \|_1 \leq \sum^n_{j=1} |x_j| \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ij}|[/tex]

Define [tex]C = \max \limits_{1\leq j\leq n} \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ij}|[/tex]. Then

[tex] \| Ax \|_1 \leq C \sum^n_{j=1} |x_j| = C \|x\|_1[/tex]

Hence,

[tex] \frac{\| Ax \|_1}{\|x\|_1} \leq C[/tex]

In both cases, it seems like they treat [tex]\sum^n_{k=1} |x_k|[/tex] like a factor. Or maybe... is it [tex]\sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ij}|[/tex] that they're treating like a factor? God... I'm confused >.<

Thanks for all the help,

Reli~
 
Last edited:
On website #1 they get to:

[tex]\| A \|_1 \leq \max \limits_{\| x\|_1 = 1} \sum^n_{k=1} |x_k| \sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ik}|[/tex]

Which you can think of as:

[tex]\| A \|_1 \leq \max \limits_{\| x\|_1 = 1} \sum^n_{k=1} |x_k| c_k[/tex]

where

[tex]c_k=\sum^n_{i=1} |a_{ik}|[/tex]

Replacing [tex]c_k[/tex] in the sum with the max (as k ranges from 1 to n) gives:

[tex]\| A \|_1 \leq \max \limits_{\| x\|_1 = 1} \sum^n_{k=1} |x_k| \left(\max\limits_{1\leq j\leq n} c_j\right)[/tex]

This inner max is not dependent on k or your choice of the vector x, so it can be pulled out of the summation sign and the max over the vectors x to give:

[tex]\| A \|_1 \leq \left(\max \limits_{\| x\|_1 = 1} \sum^n_{k=1} |x_k|\right)\left( \max\limits_{1\leq j\leq n} c_j\right)[/tex]

and [tex]\max \limits_{\| x\|_1 = 1} \sum^n_{k=1} |x_k|=1[/tex], so that's it.
 
Last edited:
Thanks a lot shmoe. From you explanation of #1, I can see why they did the same for #2. Thanks a lot! I appreciate the help!

Reli~
 

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