A question about QM "Observer effect"

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the "observer effect" in quantum mechanics (QM), specifically addressing what constitutes an observation and how it relates to wave function collapse. Participants explore interpretations of QM, measurement outcomes, and the role of interaction in the process.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that "looking" at a particle involves interacting with it, such as hitting it with another particle, while others argue that observation is more about measurement outcomes rather than direct interaction.
  • One participant mentions that wave function collapse is part of certain interpretations of QM, like the Copenhagen interpretation, while noting that other interpretations, such as Bohmian Mechanics, do not include collapse.
  • There is a suggestion that the term "look" refers to interaction that leads to decoherence, rather than a conscious observation.
  • Participants question how measurement is achieved and express a desire for simpler explanations regarding interaction and measurement processes.
  • It is noted that interactions are typically continuous and that environmental factors contribute to classical properties, with specific mention of the interaction Hamiltonian as a mathematical representation of these interactions.
  • Some participants assert that the concept of collapse is subtle and not universally accepted within QM, indicating that it may only represent apparent collapse in certain contexts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus on the nature of observation and wave function collapse, with multiple competing views and interpretations remaining present throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on interpretations of quantum mechanics, the ambiguity surrounding the definition of measurement, and the unresolved nature of how measurement outcomes are determined.

silvercats
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So if we "look" at a particle, then its wave function collapses. Does "look" mean, hitting that particle with another particle (a light particle?). A simple Yes/No answers first please. I mean, does its wave function collapse because we first need to hit that particle with an electron or a proton first, to observe it? not because it "knows" that we observe it?
 
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It cannot be a simple Yes/No answer. The wave function collapses when you get a measurement outcome, ie. a definite result, which is an "irreversible" "classical" or "macroscopic" mark. Whether you get a definite result is up to you to decide. You can delegate it to a machine, but you have to do the delegation. This is the "observer effect" and or the "Heisenberg cut", and is part of the orthodox Copenhagen-style interpretation of QM.

However, you should also note that in that interpretation, the wave function is just a tool to calculate the probabilities of measurement outcomes.
 
Last edited:
silvercats said:
So if we "look" at a particle, then its wave function collapses. Does "look" mean, hitting that particle with another particle (a light particle?). A simple Yes/No answers first please. I mean, does its wave function collapse because we first need to hit that particle with an electron or a proton first, to observe it? not because it "knows" that we observe it?

A few comments.

First collapse isn't actually part of QM - its part of some interpretations - but others like Bohmian Mechanics don't have it. There days the modern version is how does an improper mixed state become a proper one - colloquially its why we get any outcomes at all:
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/5439/1/Decoherence_Essay_arXiv_version.pdf

Look does not mean that. Look means interacting with the system to produce decoherence.

Thanks
Bill
 
atyy said:
get a measurement
how do we "Get a measurement"?

Simpler the answer the better.
 
bhobba said:
interacting with the system
How do we INTERACT?
 
silvercats said:
How do we INTERACT?

Its the other way around in general - how do we not interact.

In the everyday world systems are immersed in an environment they interact with all the time - in fact that's what gives things its classical properties. For example a few stray photons from the CBMR are enough to decohere a dust particle and give it a specific location. It turns out most interactions are of the radial type so that, for example, the closer two objects get the stronger the force they feel. Mathematically they have what's called an interaction Hamiltonian.

Thanks
Bill
 
bhobba said:
have what's called an interaction Hamiltonian.
So am I correct If I tell that the reason for the wave function to collapse is this "interaction Hamiltonian" ?
 
silvercats said:
So am I correct If I tell that the reason for the wave function to collapse is this "interaction Hamiltonian" ?

Its a bit more subtle than that.

As I said before collapse isn't really part of QM - only part of some interpretations.

And secondly interaction (represented mathematically by the Hamiltonian) only explains what is called apparent collapse.

But, basically, with those caveats, yes.

Thanks
Bill
 
silvercats said:
how do we "Get a measurement"?

Simpler the answer the better.

QM does not answer. You have to know when you get a measurement outcome.

Only a deeper theory like Bohmian Mechanics can answer such a question.
 

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