A thought worth thinking ( or maybe not)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the philosophical question of existence and perception, specifically whether an object, such as a firefly, exists if there is no observer to perceive it. This touches on themes of materialism, consciousness, and the nature of reality.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses a materialist viewpoint, suggesting that without an observer, emotions and thoughts would cease to exist, raising the question of the firefly's existence without an observer.
  • Another participant agrees that the firefly would exist regardless of observation, asserting that the question presupposes the existence of the firefly itself.
  • A different participant references a philosophical analogy about a tree falling in a forest, indicating that this question has been discussed previously and may not fit the forum's intended topics.
  • One participant elaborates on the idea that perception shapes reality, using the historical skepticism towards microorganisms as an example of how belief in existence can change with new evidence.
  • Another participant humorously suggests that recognition cannot occur without cognition, implying a relationship between perception and existence.
  • Several participants engage in playful banter regarding the implications of existence based on individual beliefs or statements.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the question of existence without observation. While some assert that the firefly exists independently of an observer, others challenge the appropriateness of the philosophical nature of the question within the forum context. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes references to philosophical concepts and historical examples that may not be universally accepted or applicable, highlighting the subjective nature of perception and existence.

Deepak K Kapur
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I am a materialist (99%) and believe that if somebody hits something on my head with force, all my emotions, feelings, thoughts and even life would vanish in an instant.

Yet, a few days ago something happened like this...

I was sitting in my room at night and there was an electric cut. Darkness engulfed the room. Suddenly, I saw a mysterious light in the room. I got curious and ultimately it turned out to be a firefly (so much for curiosity).

Suddenly, a thought appeared in my mind as follows:

If I had not been in the room and there would have been no one else also in this universe to look at the firefly, would the firefly still exist?

Suddenly, I have posted it here. Thanks.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
yes.
 
If we say it would exist then it would. Wow! that was deep! :eek:
 
Of course it would exist. Your question assumes that there is a firefly to look at.
 
consciousness said:
If we say it would exist then it would. Wow! that was deep! :eek:

I say you don't, so you don't!
:biggrin:
 
Enigman said:
I say you don't, so you don't!
:biggrin:

Indeed if you say I don't then I don't...(To you that is :biggrin:)
 
Drakkith said:
Of course it would exist. Your question assumes that there is a firefly to look at.

Let me give another example.

When micro-organisms were first proposed, people mocked at the idea and said that life cannot be so small as what would be its purpose and so on and so forth.

When people got signals of a bacteria through a microscope (and through various other indirect means), they started believing it.

When I see a firefly, all that is being done is that certain signals are being interpreted by the human brain (normal brain) in a particular way. If there are no signals or no brain to interpret them, what remains of the firefly.

In other words, it's possible that other living beings like insects or birds etc. don't see the firefly at all. They may view it to be totally different if we could ever take a snapshot from their angle.

It may also mean (IMHO), that at the very moment there may be countless invisible creatures accompanying the firefly because we are not able to receive signals from them. If in future, if we are able to do so (by an instrument, suppose) we would say that spirits (or whatever) exists and then we would be ready to mold the physical laws to fit the new picture.

I am in no way saying that the present physicals laws are wrong, but simply that human make (or discover?) laws when they are able to sense or see things. It's our sense or perception that seems to be rule the roost.
 
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Enigman said:
Philosophy isn't supposed to be allowed in the fora.
Exactly.

Thread closed.
 

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