Physics Accelerator Physics - A field where jobs go begging

[AccAcc]

Research for the LHC started in the mid 80's and was turned on in 2009. Also, research on the International Linear Collider started in the 90's and they haven't even decided where to build it yet, so it's not a fast process.

As far as smaller machines go, I think it depends on how new the technology is, if you need to do lots of R&D the whole process will take much longer than if you are building something based on existing technology.

There are a whole bunch of smaller and active electron accelerators around US universities and National Laboratories that require daily, hands-on maintenance. Run a beam for a day, open up the cave or go down to the tunnels, tweak cameras/magnets/experiments, exit, lock-up, start beam up again. It's not as much about long-term construction and planning as it is incremental operations and upgrading.

This is a great thread, and I highly appreciate all the information that has already been posted. I'm only a lower division community college student, so I apologize for my lack of knowledge, but I have a few questions about accelerator physicists.

Are accelerator physicists further subdivided into different areas based on application (i.e. medical accelerator physicist, industrial accelerator physicist, etc.)? Or is an accelerator physicist capable of working on a wide range of accelerators?

Also, how long does it take to complete an accelerator construction project (from designing, to testing, and building an accelerator, large and small)?

What are some of these skill that are not necessarily Physics related? I would guess programming and electrical design to be among these skills. Would designing electronic circuitry be something you pick up during your Physics undergrad studies, accelerator-specific studies, or elsewhere (on your own?)?

Overall, I'd say there's a pretty large divide between accelerator physicists that work on electron facilities, and those that work on proton/heavy-ion experiments. The vastly different scale in mass leads to a significant divergence of what effects matter and what ones don't.

There's room for all kinds in accelerator physics. Work on a larger proton/ion facility (CERN, Fermilab's main complex, RHIC), and there will be days, weeks, or months that you can't work on the main beamlines, but there are constant, 24-7 shifts and data collection regarding the performance of the full complex.

On a smaller accelerator, there is hands-on work, interaction with techs to get pieces modified or installed AND helping them yourself, shifts or work in the control-room.

With all, you'll be doing programming of some kind, but that's good, because programming-based research is fantastic experience for getting a non-physics job in the future.

Actual Electrical Engineering is a bit borderline. You'll work with electrical stuff and equipment, but it really isn't anywhere near as in-depth as to what actual EE majors do.

I'd always recommend taking your free time to PRODUCE something. Either sitting down to program or make your own circuitry as a great experience, and helps get you accustomed to the process and frustration that comes with research.

 

[thecage]

Hello,

Does anyone know of any Master's programme in Europe? I haven't really found any specialised accelerator physics courses, is it best just to take a high energy physics master and go to summer schools? Or do I have to go to America?

 

[evanatch]

Hi, I'm a high school senior who will be majoring in physics or engineering (although I'm sort of leaning towards physics at the moment). Being able to combine the two sounds interesting, especially in a field with strong job prospects! That said, I have a couple questions:

-What exactly would an accelerator physicist do on a day-to-day basis? What's the impact of of accelerator physics on areas like space technology or nuclear energy fields? What other fields does accelerator physics research have an impact on?
-How interdisciplinary is accelerator physics? I'm interested in things like nuclear physics, particles physics, and plasma physics (although as a high school student I'll readily admit I don't know an awful lot about any of those disciplines). Would specializing in accelerator physics prevent one from exploring these other areas?
-Since you say accelerator physicists are in demand, does this mean they have a better chance at tenure-track positions than other disciplines? Being a professor would be a kind of dream job for me; not only because of the cool research opportunities, but I really love to teach people about things I'm interested in as well. I'm just a bit scared of spending 10+ more years of schooling getting a PhD and being stuck in a low-paying postdoc position for 10 years afterward.

I'm probably getting way ahead of myself considering I'm still in high school but I like to plan ahead. Thanks for this thread, it's definitely got me thinking about this field!

Evan

 

[Moneer81]

evanatch,

Do yourself a favor, and go the engineering route.

To answer your questions:

1. zero impact on the fields you mentioned

2. The field is pretty interdisciplinary. Mainly between physics and EE.

3. If you are worried about getting stuck as a postdoc or concerned about employment opportunities, then go the engineering route instead of physics.

P.S. I am not an accelerator physicists so please take my advice with a grain of salt. Someone more knowledgeable is probably more worthy of listening to.

 

[Gullik]

Hello,

Does anyone know of any Master's programme in Europe? I haven't really found any specialised accelerator physics courses, is it best just to take a high energy physics master and go to summer schools? Or do I have to go to America?

If you for example would follow this program at Oslo, Norway, Subatomic Physics, they have plenty of people working on CLIC, a next generation linear accelerator project so you could write a Master Thesis in collaboration with some of them.

 

[AccAcc]

Is it possible to change the thread title to actually include the term "Accelerator Physics"? This is so... hidden. I really only found it because I knew the name of the article it references.

Hi, I'm a high school senior who will be majoring in physics or engineering (although I'm sort of leaning towards physics at the moment). Being able to combine the two sounds interesting, especially in a field with strong job prospects! That said, I have a couple questions:

-What exactly would an accelerator physicist do on a day-to-day basis? What's the impact of of accelerator physics on areas like space technology or nuclear energy fields? What other fields does accelerator physics research have an impact on?
-How interdisciplinary is accelerator physics? I'm interested in things like nuclear physics, particles physics, and plasma physics (although as a high school student I'll readily admit I don't know an awful lot about any of those disciplines). Would specializing in accelerator physics prevent one from exploring these other areas?
-Since you say accelerator physicists are in demand, does this mean they have a better chance at tenure-track positions than other disciplines? Being a professor would be a kind of dream job for me; not only because of the cool research opportunities, but I really love to teach people about things I'm interested in as well. I'm just a bit scared of spending 10+ more years of schooling getting a PhD and being stuck in a low-paying postdoc position for 10 years afterward.

I'm probably getting way ahead of myself considering I'm still in high school but I like to plan ahead. Thanks for this thread, it's definitely got me thinking about this field!

Evan

A few answers:

- High school is WAY too early to really be considering specializations of your post-graduate work. Finish your undergrad physics classes, then start the pruning process.

- While the job market is relatively good for permanent positions, this is overwhelmingly for staff scientist roles at National Laboratories, and assorted private companies. There aren't many professorships to be found in accelerator physics, because there aren't many schools that do accelerator physics... which is why the job market is so good. Or at least that's my view on the topic. Don't aim for a professorship, period, or you'll end up like one of my many friends on Facebook that is completely caught off guard (HOW?) by the postdoc job market.

- Accelerator Postdocs are better paid and easier to get. You also spend less time as one before finding a more permanent position at a lab, or at least it was a few years ago. The US government's budget issues will be a long-term source of pain for accelerator physicists.

- Accelerator Physics serves as the source for Particle Physics experiments. Constant upgrades of the accelerator systems of national laboratories drives luminosity and energy upgrades for the particle physics experiments. They need us, badly, even if they don't really acknowledge our existence all the time.

- What do you mean by "Nuclear Physics"? Do you mean Spin Physics, or Nuclear Power? Accelerator Driven Systems are a thing for the latter.

- Plasma Physics is tangentially related. Some of the formalisms help (by my understand), but Plasma Wakefield Acceleration is a small intersection between the two fields that is of some interest.

 

[ZapperZ]

I'm going to mention this in here so that info on Accelerator Physics are contained on this one thread.

I've emphasized the marriage between physics and engineering that is found in accelerator physics. It would be a disservice to this field if I do not emphasize another important merging of fields here, and that is physics and computational science.

Accelerator physics depends very much on computational science. This is because before one can actually build anything, there has to be a well-modeled and simulation of what needed to be built. These components and structures are prohibitively expensive and complicated. They properties and functions can only usually be characterized via computational simulations.

This is why computational science/physics is a vital component in accelerator physics. Physicists and engineers who specialize in this area of accelerator physics almost become computer scientists themselves, because very often, they not only have to be able to use the codes they are using, but they often have to write and optimize those codes themselves.

This report highlights the future needs in terms of computing for accelerator sciences:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.2203

It should provide ample evidence where someone who wants to do engineering or physics, but also are very keen in computer programing/software/simulations can have his/her cake and eat it too. It is another example where by the field of accelerator physics truly often combines knowledge and expertise from different disciplines.

Zz.

 

[zeralda21]

Zz.

In general, it seems that every domain of let it be science/technology, both theoretical and experimental, relies more and more on computational science nowadays. How much computer science is required though? Equivalent to a Bsc? Ms? Or even more?

 

[ZapperZ]

In general, it seems that every domain of let it be science/technology, both theoretical and experimental, relies more and more on computational science nowadays. How much computer science is required though? Equivalent to a Bsc? Ms? Or even more?

Please note that you are not majoring in computer science here. You are still either in engineering or physics, but you will have large components of computational work/computational physics/numerical analysis.

I linked earlier in this thread the curriculum to a Particle Accelerator school. Look through the curriculum and you'll find computational courses related to particle physics.

Zz.

 

[thecage]

Hello,

I have some further questions about this field:
- Would it be possible to combine this field with others, such as optics? I've seen some research about accelerators-on-a-chip using lasers, but how big are such cross-over fields (in terms of: money spent on research, and/or number of unsolved problems, and/or employability)?
- I'm majoring in physics because engineering just seems to "locked in" to the chosen specialisation; I'd want to work on a multitude of problems; sometimes doing pure theory, sometimes pure application, on many scales (from mega-projects to small tabletop experiments) and just doing wild, imaginative science that could lead to unexpected result. I don't only want to work on projects where the outcome is already known and you just have to do blueprint after blueprint using conventional methods and the most excitment you'll get is when your computer code shows the wrong result. In short, would accelerator physics be something for me?
- Does anyone know some names of companies that are in the accelerator business?
- Does anyone know any internships for europeans? (don't mention CERN because I'm not eligible)

 

[ZapperZ]

An update on this for those in the US.

The National Science Foundation, starting with this year's funding cycle, has created a separate division for Accelerator Science. It used to be that funding related to accelerator physics were done under the High Energy Physics division of the NSF. Now, Accelerator Science has its own separate division.

This, I think, is a more accurate reflection of what accelerator physics is. A lot of advancement, and thus, funding requests, for accelerator research involves applications that have nothing to do with high energy physics. Funding requests related to improvement for FELs and ERLs are more in line with facilities related to material science, condensed matter physics, etc. Thus, having a separate Accelerator Science division makes sense.

Not sure how it will be in terms of ease of getting funding, though.

Zz.

 

[heatengine516]

I'm a little confused on how this works.

So are the USPAS classes technical courses meant to supplement a PhD at a university that already does accelerator physics? Or is this an actual stand-alone Master's program, after which you would be qualified to work in labs as an accelerator scientist?

OR is it meant to supplement a PhD from any university in whatever kind of physics you're doing at that university?

And does Indiana offer a dedicated program at their university, or do you HAVE to hunt down the courses at whatever university is hosting them that year?

 

[AccAcc]

I'm a little confused on how this works.

So are the USPAS classes technical courses meant to supplement a PhD at a university that already does accelerator physics? Or is this an actual stand-alone Master's program, after which you would be qualified to work in labs as an accelerator scientist?

OR is it meant to supplement a PhD from any university in whatever kind of physics you're doing at that university?

And does Indiana offer a dedicated program at their university, or do you HAVE to hunt down the courses at whatever university is hosting them that year?

Yes, to all three questions.

- The USPAS program acts as a way to give introductory course work for Accelerator Physics at schools that don't have a devoted class for the subject.

- I don't know if it alone qualifies you to work at a lab, as I think a very small % of the attendees are "at large". Most are lab employees already, or graduate students. There are a few undergrads tossed in the mix (the Lee Tang student group, for example).

- The USPAS program offers advanced classes for employees at labs to learn more about advanced accelerator subjects and systems.

- The program offers a way current employees at labs to earn a Masters degree over time, by taking taking one class each time there is a USPAS school for several years.

- Indiana has quite a large accelerator group, as far as I can tell.

 

[heatengine516]

Thank you very much for the info. So basically, I don't really need to worry about it until grad school or employment in a related area. But I love the idea of the marriage between physics, engineering, and computational science. I think I'll keep an eye on the Lee Tang internship and perhaps try to apply next summer.

 

[thegreenlaser]

Thanks for the info, this field looks pretty interesting. I understand there's a lot of overlap, but how does one get into this field on the EE side rather than the physics side? I'm an EE student (minoring in physics), and I'd like to do a masters/PhD in EE with some focus on physics. A lot of the accelerator grad programs look like they would get you a MSc/PhD in physics rather than EE, though. Is it possible to get an EE masters/PhD directly relating to accelerator physics or would I have to do something like RF or computational EM (or something else?) and then move into accelerator physics from there?

 

[ZapperZ]

Thanks for the info, this field looks pretty interesting. I understand there's a lot of overlap, but how does one get into this field on the EE side rather than the physics side? I'm an EE student (minoring in physics), and I'd like to do a masters/PhD in EE with some focus on physics. A lot of the accelerator grad programs look like they would get you a MSc/PhD in physics rather than EE, though. Is it possible to get an EE masters/PhD directly relating to accelerator physics or would I have to do something like RF or computational EM (or something else?) and then move into accelerator physics from there?

The key thing here is to find a graduate advisor who will support you in pursuing an accelerator physics program. This makes no difference if you are a physics or an EE major. For example, at University of Maryland, you can do accelerator physics either in physics or in EE, simply because the EE program also has a program and the faculty members in that area.

Even if the department (be it physics or EE) does not have specific courses in accelerator physics for you specialize in, with your advisor's support, the USPAS classes should be able to provide you with the necessary course work before you start your research.

BTW, if you've looked carefully at a post that I did in this thread, I listed 3 individuals who currently are in the EE dept. at various schools who are actually accelerator physicists. There's a good chance that those same schools will have EE programs supporting students who wish to pursue accelerator science.

Zz.

 

[heatengine516]

What if you have no one in the physics or EE departments that has any interest in accelerator physics? Indiana isn't too far, I think if I want to pursue accelerator physics I'll have to go there for my masters/PhD.

 

[ZapperZ]

What if you have no one in the physics or EE departments that has any interest in accelerator physics?

Have you asked?

The faculty members may not have had experiences in the field, but it doesn't mean that they won't let you do that IF, say, you can work at a National Lab, for example, and have another person supervise your work. Often, the faculty member may have expertise in RF fields or EM fields or related fields, but not specifically with applications to accelerators. He/she may agree to be the advisor of a student who wish to pursue accelerator physics.

Otherwise, go to another school.

Zz.

 

[ZapperZ]

This post is not really related to "career" topic, but since this thread is about accelerator physics, I will keep all of it in here.

This PhysicsWorld article highlights a proposed ability to observe the dynamics of a Rydberg atom, with picosecond time resolution. Most people reading this will be enamored by the idea of watching a "movie" of the motion of electrons in such an atom. However, don't miss paying attention to what gives them the ability to make such an observation! It is due to the advancement that has been made in accelerator physics!

The proposed measurement comes out of the advancement in free-electron lasers, an instrument that is within the realm of accelerator physics. People in this field continue to make improvements to both the physics of beams and also to the engineering aspect of this field. It is only when they make the improvements and tell other folks in other fields what the machine is capable of doing, will these other folks then able to dream up things that they can do. And this is not just limited to physics. Advancement in medicine, chemistry, biology, engineering, etc. also rely on the availability and capability of the instrument that they use. As the instrument expands and improves its capabilities, so will the rest of the people using it.

So while most people will read this article and think that it is about viewing atoms, you should read it as an article on accelerator physics and the improvement made to a free-electron laser.

Zz.

 

[WK95]

I know that Electrical Engineering and Physics are preferred degrees but how can a person with a Mechanical Engineering degree (Which I'm working on getting) get into this field?

 

[ZapperZ]

I know that Electrical Engineering and Physics are preferred degrees but how can a person with a Mechanical Engineering degree (Which I'm working on getting) get into this field?

Do you have sufficient knowledge in E&M up to Jackson's "Classical Electromagnetism"? Can you go into graduate school by switching to EE? Can you find an advisor to support you in this field?

These are questions that only you can answer.

Zz.

 

[PPFusion]

What are good UK institutions to do a PhD in accelerator physics?

 

[ZapperZ]

What are good UK institutions to do a PhD in accelerator physics?

I should have pointed out this document early on when someone asked me in general about the various institutions in the US that have accelerator physics program.

http://web.mit.edu/Lns/news/RAST_Education_Paper.pdf

This document contains that, and also programs in the UK, in Russia, Japan, and even Turkey. It has info about the USPAS, the CERN Particle Accelerator school for students in Europe, and the Joint Accelerator Schools.

Zz.

 

[ChristinaJ]

What are good UK institutions to do a PhD in accelerator physics?

The John Adams Institute, which is a collaboration between Oxford, Imperial college and Royal Holloway, and the Cockroft Institute which is a collaboration between Manchester, Liverpool and Lancaster Universities.

 

[ChristinaJ]

I personally champion the John Adams Institute as I had a great experience and was given the chance to perform parts of my graduate work in Japan and the USA.

 

[thecage]

I have been in contact with the John Adams Institute (Oxford) for a summer internship, and I will be interviewed next week for the final selection. Now, I'm wondering about what sorts of qualifications they are looking for; I'm currently doing my bachelor's diploma project at CERN in (theoretical) accelerator physics and I have taken master courses in optics, though I don't have much experience in experimental physics or working with optical tables etc. They told me that the project most likely will be about lasers, is hands-on experience necessary to be selected?

 

[ChristinaJ]

I'm pretty sure hands on experience is not necessary for such a position but if you come up against candidates of similar academic calibre but also with hands on experience you may loose out.

Good luck!

 

[Theoretical]

What are the chances that someone would be accepted to do a PhD in Physics when i haven't really covered it as an undergrad? The closest I got was working on an antimatter trap for a project.

 

[Theoretical]

That should say PhD in Accelerator Physics. Edit function won't let me change it.

 

[ZapperZ]

One often does not major in "accelerator physics" at the undergraduate level. Those who got into a PhD program in accelerator physics did not have a B.Sc. physics/EE degree in "Accelerator physics". Such a major/specialization usually doesn't exist at the undergraduate level.

This means that you get into accelerator physics with your standard physics/EE/engineering degree.

If you have time, please read through the thread. There are numerous entries here that might answer your question.

Zz.

 

[ChristinaJ]

Accelerator physics is rarely offered at undergraduate level, it is often just an aside in particle physics studies. I had a grand total of 4 hours of Accelerator physics lectures at undergrad, I actually found my interest during my final year project.

I would say that most of my formally taught accelerator physics came from my first year graduate education and summer schools.

Btw, I studied in England, it may not be the same story everywhere.

 

[Theoretical]

Sorry I should have clarified that I am aware people don't do a degree Accelerator Physics. It is just with all of the talk of attending the accelerator schools it sounded like that was required.

 

[ChristinaJ]

Introductory accelerator schools such as CAS (CERN accelerator school) and USPAS (US particle accelerator school) are generally attended early in a graduate degree, though you can attend as an undergraduate, and can in some cases be used for credit. More specialized schools, which deal with specific areas of accelerator physics are often attended by postdocs and graduate student's who are further into their degree.

 

[Theoretical]

Okay thank you for clearing that up!

 

[Duderonimous]

Hello,

I have read this post closely as well as most of the links and I am extremely interested. If I decided to attend a graduate program that offers accelerator physics ideally I would like to go to Stanford, Berkeley, or UCLA.

I am 25 and about to start my junior year (transfer) at cal poly pomona and I was admitted for electrical engineering.

Say if I want to be admitted to the applied physics department at Stanford as a doctoral student. Am I at a disadvantage being a EE student (with focus on RF engineering) as opposed to being a physics student when I apply? (The department website says they do encourage students from engineering fields to apply to the department)
In addition to the general and physics GRE scores (which I am sure I will do well on) that must be submitted there is also a qualifying exam that grad students must take within six quarters of being in the Stanford applied physics program. Will this qualifying exam be beyond me with my EE knowledge (it is an oral exam so no practice exams were available to look at). I planned on minoring in physics along with EE. Will this suffice? Or should I just jump ship and major in physics?

In addition how does one go about looking for jobs hiring someone with accelerator knowledge. I see only job listings for national laboratories (via the USPAS website). I am kind of excluding medical physics because it doesn't catch my interest. Would I really be guaranteed a job out of school in this "field where jobs go begging"?

Thanks.

 

[ZapperZ]

You may want to read and participate in this thread;

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=746396

Zz.

 

[Duderonimous]

An update on Stanford's program-

I e-mailed the applied physics department in regards to whether or not their department has a qualifying exam that grad students must take just like the physics department does there.
This was their response:

"The Applied Physics Department does not have a comprehensive exam in the first year (or ever!) like the Physics Department does. Our basic philosophy is that if one is admitted into our PhD program, he or she is fully qualified in the basic undergraduate physics fields we expect of our students to be able to succeed in the required graduate level courses and to be successful in their research program.

Our students do need to pass a so-called PhD candidacy review before the end of the 2nd year. It does not include a written exam but rather an oral presentation on a research advance selected by the student in front of a faculty committee of 3. It is called the PhD qualifying exam."

So that must be good for EE undergrads concerned with going to a top accelerator program for grad school.

 

[Duderonimous]

Hello,

Aren't photonics and plasma electronics highly applicable to accelerators as well? Is RF engineering related to these subjects?
At UCLA the subset of the EE department that deals with accelerators are the photonics and plasma electronics group. They have a separate group for RF engineering and it seems that they focus on things unrelated to accelerators.
I know RF cavity design are a major part of accelerators but is this emphasized when an undergrad is taking RF classes? I feel more like these classes are tailored to students who want to study wireless communication.

Basically I want to figure out what upper-divsion undergrad EE classes are relevant to accelerators.
Are the following courses relevant (these are electives)?

ECE 402 Electromagnetic Fields and Applications (4)
Electrodynamics, wave equations, and reflection and scattering of waves. Radio frequency applications of transmission line techniques, and impedance matching. S-parameter design techniques. Couplers, hybrids, and filters. Experiments on impedance matching, RF circuits, antennas, and S-parameter measurements using Network Analyzers. 4 lectures/problem-solving.
Prerequisite: ECE 302.

ECE 408 Digital Signal Processing (3)
The analysis, design and implementation of Finite Impulse Response (FIR) and Infinite Impulse Response (IIR) filters. 3 lectures/problemsolving.
Prerequisite: ECE 306.

ECE 410 Microwave Engineering (3)
Principles of waveguide devices, and active microwave devices. Scattering parameter techniques. Design of microwave circuits and components. Design of receivers, transmitters, and radar systems. Microwave network analysis and system level testing. 4 lectures/problem-solving.
Prerequisites: ECE 402.

ECE 420 Lasers (4)
Introduction to ray optics, beam optics, diffraction, coherence, and phoronoptics. Fundamental principles and applications of lasers, energy levels and mechanisms of excitation, basic types of lasers. Q switching and modes. Modulation and detection. 4 lectures/problem-solving.
Prerequisites: ECE 302.

ECE 437 Introduction to Photonics (4)
The nature of light. Simple geometric optics. Thermal and atomic-line light sources, modulation of lights. Nonlinear optics and parametric oscillations. Luminescence. Display devices. Laser and laser light. Photodetectors, optical waveguides.
ECE 302 prerequisite, ECE 330 prerequisite, or corequisite.

ECE 448 R.F. Design (4)
Principles of R.F. design of transmitters and receivers utilizing solid state electronics devices and integrated circuits. RF design techniques including S-parameters, design of amplifiers, oscillators, mixers and detectors. 4 lectures/problem-solving. Prerequisite: ECE 402.

thanks

 

[ZapperZ]

In case some of you missed this, how would you like to get a free copy of a 335-page book on a guide to electron photo injectors? Yes? No?

http://arxiv.org/abs/1403.7539

It covers the photoinjector system and basic physics of photocathodes.

Zz.

 

[ChristinaJ]

Are the following courses relevant

Yes. All of them.

 

[TheKracken]

I am currently a mathematics major looking to minor in economics and physics. I would love to go on to do my Phd in a employable and interesting field. Would a Applied mathematics degree be enough to get into one of these programs?

Also, what other courses should I add? I would have to take around 5 upper division physics classes and I am think ing 1 classical, 1 Em and 1 QM with 2 electives.

 

[ZapperZ]

I'm going to highlight an upcoming workshop related to accelerator physics. This is the third Photocathode Physics for Photoinjector workshop, and will be held at LBNL this year. This is one of the area that I specializes in.

I've emphasized the "marriage" between physics and electrical engineering throughout this thread. In this one, I will emphasize the emerging relationship between the applied side represented by "accelerator physics", and the purely-physics side of "condensed matter physics". There are many problems encountered in accelerator physics that are essential material science problems. This means that accelerator physicists will now have to either consult, or to bring in, those who are experts in that area. This is why there are now accelerator physicists who started off their career as material scientists or condensed matter physicists.

This workshop focuses on the electron source for accelerators. With the increasing demand on beam quality for new, more demanding applications and facilities, the community decided a while back that a systematic, well-planned gathering of experts from both sides is required to address and tackle this issue. So if you look at the aim of the workshop and the program, you will see both the basic, fundamental physics of photoemission being discussed as the same time as the beam quality of the emitted electrons that are being accelerated. This is where both sides will learn from each other; accelerator physicists need to know what is possible and can be engineered, condensed matter physicists need to learn what characteristics are needed out of these material.

The workshop starts Monday, and I fly off to Berkeley tomorrow. :)

Zz.

 

[td21]

I am also interested in accelerator physics also. I have been following your advice and guideline for a long time. But I found it quite difficult to get admitted to programs where accelerator physics is included or applied physics program.

 

[JJminusI]

Long time listener, first time poster on physics forums, here. Although, I have avoided the careers section until now.

Since I went to grad school for accelerator physics and have been working, post graduation, for several years now I'd like to share my perspective on jobs in this field. I quite enjoy working in the field, however, there are a number of systematic problems which lead to the so-called 'begging for accelerator scientists.' Summary: The shortage of candidates in this field is almost entirely due to a mix of job market frictions that are a result of institutional and personal biases among those with the money to employ people.

1) Most of the jobs in this field in the US are at national labs and the turn over is really, really low. You'll almost certainly be working your entry level job 5 years after you start and likely for much longer, so make sure there is a laboratory somewhere you want to live the rest of your life. Also, there are very few academic positions for accelerator scientists, if you want to be a professor, don't come into this field. Because turn-over is so low, a lot of the hiring at the labs is done informally, if you are applying cold and you don't know the person who needs the position filled (and they haven't encouraged you to apply) it is likely you are applying to a job that is posted to satisfy some posting requirement rather than a legitimate interest in applicants. This appears to relax at the very high level where labs poach project managers from each other. This is less so in industry, but not by much. See #4.

2) The article from 2010 is incorrect now (if it was ever correct), you must do a postdoc if you want to go to a lab. Some labs may take you on in a temp scientist position if you worked at the lab during grad school. If you go to a school without an associated national lab, you must do a postdoc. If you decide to go into industry, the labs won't take you in any position other than a postdoc until you are very experienced and they have a specific need for your skills and there is no one at the lab who wants to do the job. I have been told this by a number of people who do the hiring at the labs and my former PI. The view is that you cheated your way out of paying your dues, took a (marginally) larger paycheck and then didn't do anything of real value anyway. See also #1 about the job hunt. Further, labs will require you to submit 3 references at the start of an application, or they won't even consider your application. In other words, you practically have to tell your current boss you want to quit before you can even apply for another job. In my opinion, this is why companies like AES has trouble finding candidates, you are either stay at AES for a long time, or you leave accelerator physics.

3) This field suffers from the same problem that a lot of jobs that require physics PhDs do: the pay is mediocre compared to other jobs available to physics PhD holders.

4) A large majority of the funding still comes from other fields that want something and this money comes from governments. So, a majority of the jobs that will be available when you graduate will be at a small number of labs because some steering committee chose that project for funding in their 7-year plan. Right now, a lot of the job postings are coming from FRIB (Michigan State) and ELI (locations in Europe) with a smaller number from LCLS-II (SLAC) and ESS (Sweden/Spain). Because of the way the funding process works, these projects are placed at labs that already have a large fraction of the people they need (they were required to write the proposals and do the initial science), so there isn't a lot of room for new bodies from other places even when a billion dollar facility gets funded.

 

[ZapperZ]

Here is another crucial application of accelerators:

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article...cal-isotope-breakthrough-made-at-canadian-lab

Zz.

 

[ZapperZ]

Particle accelerators - current and future applications. This is in response to the new DOE Stewardship program in Accelerator Science.

This is another opportunity for someone who isn't aware of it yet, to learn that accelerators have uses in a large number of areas outside of high energy physics experiments.



Zz.

 

[JJminusI]

Particle accelerators - current and future applications. This is in response to the new DOE Stewardship program in Accelerator Science.

This is another opportunity for someone who isn't aware of it yet, to learn that accelerators have uses in a large number of areas outside of high energy physics experiments.



Zz.

This talk is a perfect example of what is wrong when people say that we (the US) need more accelerator physicists. The business model for the examples given is to have some company take technology that Fermilab has developed and do something with it. There are no new jobs in accelerator physics here. To take the flare gas example. They want someone to design the truck, and power plant and do the chemistry on the flare gas and heavy oil and so on and then point a Fermilab SRF linac at the problem. That is a perfectly fine goal and Fermilab is very knowledgeable, but there aren't going to be any new jobs for accelerator physicists created because of the Stewardship program, which funded 6 proposals out of more than 60 in the first go around. The HEP accelerator topics in the DOE Office of Science SBIR program are extremely competitive, the program area is perhaps the most competitive program area of all.

To bring it back to the subject of this thread and the sub-forum: accelerators are great and all, but the world does not need more accelerator physicists and readers are far better off learning to work with the technologies surrounding the accelerators (cryogenics, pulsed power, power distribution, etc) than the accelerator physics itself.

 

[ZapperZ]

This talk is a perfect example of what is wrong when people say that we (the US) need more accelerator physicists. The business model for the examples given is to have some company take technology that Fermilab has developed and do something with it. There are no new jobs in accelerator physics here. To take the flare gas example. They want someone to design the truck, and power plant and do the chemistry on the flare gas and heavy oil and so on and then point a Fermilab SRF linac at the problem. That is a perfectly fine goal and Fermilab is very knowledgeable, but there aren't going to be any new jobs for accelerator physicists created because of the Stewardship program, which funded 6 proposals out of more than 60 in the first go around. The HEP accelerator topics in the DOE Office of Science SBIR program are extremely competitive, the program area is perhaps the most competitive program area of all.

To bring it back to the subject of this thread and the sub-forum: accelerators are great and all, but the world does not need more accelerator physicists and readers are far better off learning to work with the technologies surrounding the accelerators (cryogenics, pulsed power, power distribution, etc) than the accelerator physics itself.

I find that to be a rather narrow-minded opinion on what "accelerator physics" is.

First of all, the Stewardship program is not a regular, yearly funding proposal opportunity. Rather, it is an additional opportunity to fulfill a specific need.

Secondly, the very fact that the technologies surrounding accelerator physics are quite useful in other areas means that someone who majored in this area has a greater flexibility and opportunity to seek jobs elsewhere and not confined to just this field. This is not a bad thing and it is really a strong point for that field. The merging of engineering and physics in that field is a significant factor here.

But coming back to this video, I do not see how this is actually a promotion for needing more accelerator physicist. I may have posted this video in the thread having that theme, but I posted this video here as part of an effort to show how accelerators are used in a wide variety of area and not just in HEP experiments. There is a continuing myth that "accelerator physics" equal "high energy physics". I try to debunk that myth whenever I can, and thus the reason I highlighted this video.

Zz.

 

[JJminusI]

I find that to be a rather narrow-minded opinion on what "accelerator physics" is.

First of all, the Stewardship program is not a regular, yearly funding proposal opportunity. Rather, it is an additional opportunity to fulfill a specific need.

Secondly, the very fact that the technologies surrounding accelerator physics are quite useful in other areas means that someone who majored in this area has a greater flexibility and opportunity to seek jobs elsewhere and not confined to just this field. This is not a bad thing and it is really a strong point for that field. The merging of engineering and physics in that field is a significant factor here.

But coming back to this video, I do not see how this is actually a promotion for needing more accelerator physicist. I may have posted this video in the thread having that theme, but I posted this video here as part of an effort to show how accelerators are used in a wide variety of area and not just in HEP experiments. There is a continuing myth that "accelerator physics" equal "high energy physics". I try to debunk that myth whenever I can, and thus the reason I highlighted this video.

Zz.

Taken out of the context of jobs, I agree with you about what people in academic accelerator physics think of the field (that it is all HEP), but I can assure you that Varian, Smiths, IBA and many more see accelerator physics very differently depending on their focus: medical systems, cargo scanning, whatever.

At any rate, my point is that "accelerator physics", broadly defined to mean anyone who works near an accelerator, doesn't mean that the people involved need to learn anything more than the very basics of what particles are doing inside them, if even that. They are working on the inputs (cryogens, power, vacuum systems) or the results (x-ray optics, material chemistry) but have little to do with making a beam of charged particles do something. So yes, someone working on accelerators might find work in other fields, but it is rarely the people who use words like emittance or phrases like "betatron phase advance" and is instead the people who design and build the cryogenic plant or the modulators. Further, my experience is that the people who most loudly proclaim how fit they (or those like them) are to work in other fields haven't actually applied outside the field.

Also, I'm well aware of what the accelerator stewardship program is, I applied.

If you want to chat about how awesome the field of accelerator physics is (it can be great fun!), I'm totally game. But I disagree that the field is ripe with jobs, especially in the US, nor does it produce candidates who are readily accepted outside the field.

 

[ZapperZ]

Taken out of the context of jobs, I agree with you about what people in academic accelerator physics think of the field (that it is all HEP), but I can assure you that Varian, Smiths, IBA and many more see accelerator physics very differently depending on their focus: medical systems, cargo scanning, whatever.

At any rate, my point is that "accelerator physics", broadly defined to mean anyone who works near an accelerator, doesn't mean that the people involved need to learn anything more than the very basics of what particles are doing inside them, if even that. They are working on the inputs (cryogens, power, vacuum systems) or the results (x-ray optics, material chemistry) but have little to do with making a beam of charged particles do something. So yes, someone working on accelerators might find work in other fields, but it is rarely the people who use words like emittance or phrases like "betatron phase advance" and is instead the people who design and build the cryogenic plant or the modulators. Further, my experience is that the people who most loudly proclaim how fit they (or those like them) are to work in other fields haven't actually applied outside the field.

Also, I'm well aware of what the accelerator stewardship program is, I applied.

If you want to chat about how awesome the field of accelerator physics is (it can be great fun!), I'm totally game. But I disagree that the field is ripe with jobs, especially in the US, nor does it produce candidates who are readily accepted outside the field.

I think you have understood the intention of this thread totally wrong.

Let's get this clear once more. The video that I showed, and the one you quoted, is not a "job recruitment" video.

Secondly, it isn't people in academia who are confusing "accelerator physics = high energy physics". It is people OUTSIDE of academia, and students who are just entering college, who are confusing the two. Stick around this forum and you'll eventually stumble upon that fact. This is one of the impetus for me to start this thread a long time ago.

Thirdly, and again this was due to what I commonly read on here, many students somehow do not know or not aware of accelerator physics field in which they can do both physics and engineering. I've lost count on how many threads I read in the Academic Guidance and Career Guidance forum of students not knowing what to do because they can't choose between doing physics or doing engineering. In this thread, I've highlighted not only accelerator physics, but also device/detector physics field of study in which someone who is either a physics or engineering major gets to study both. This is one of the few area of studies where one can have one's cake and eat it too!

And that last point is what I had tried to focus on, that a graduate in this area are not bound by the usual trappings of research and academia to look for jobs, and that the field trains students in a wide area that are desirable in many industries. It isn't a guarantee of a job, but even during the severe funding crisis facing physics, graduates in accelerator physics tend to have a greater chance of applying what they know in a wider area of employment. I know for a fact that all of the students that went through our programs went on to gain employment in areas that are not totally unrelated to their expertise. We have physics PhD's who went on to be RF engineers and EE PhD's who are now designing positron sources.

If you had gone through this thread, you would have noticed that I had highlighted medical accelerators, accelerators for security purposes, etc.. as various applications of not only the actual beam, but the kinds of engineering that are associated with the design and maintenance of such systems. So yes, those have already been covered.

Zz.