Action of co-circular springs on a point mass

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the dynamics of a point mass tethered to multiple co-circular springs attached to a rigid metal ring. Participants explore the implications of moving one spring around the ring and its effect on the motion of the point mass, questioning whether the resulting path is circular or elliptical. The conversation touches on concepts from Hooke's Law and analytic geometry.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario where a point mass is affected by multiple springs arranged in a circular fashion, questioning the resulting motion when one spring is moved.
  • Another participant asks for clarification on how an ellipse would appear in this context, indicating a need for visual understanding.
  • A participant explains the parametric form of an ellipse and expresses confidence that their software is functioning correctly, suggesting a potential algebraic mistake in the original formulation.
  • One participant challenges the method of deriving the position of the point mass, suggesting that a quadratic equation should be involved due to the relationship between spring length and Euclidean distance.
  • Another participant emphasizes the complexity of the problem and questions the assumptions made regarding the springs' equilibrium positions and the scale of the mass's movement relative to the ring radius.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the path traced by the point mass, with some asserting it is elliptical while others question the assumptions leading to that conclusion. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact nature of the motion and the correctness of the mathematical formulations presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in the assumptions made about the springs' equilibrium positions and the scale of the mass's movement, which may affect the accuracy of the models being discussed.

omission9
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This problem is actually a simplification of something seen in a data visualization tool.
I think it is interesting in that it can be "translated" to a Hooke's Law problem.
Unfortunately, I am not sure how to proceed...
Suppose I have a point mass tethered to several springs. The springs are attached in a co-circular fashion to a rigid metal ring. The springs are equidistant from each other on the circular ring. The point mass is at some equilibrium position inside the ring.
Now, suppose we are able to slide one (and only one!) of the springs around the metal ring.
All the way around the circle.
How would you describe the movement of the point mass inside the ring? At first it seems that the point mass would move strictly in a circle of some varying radius. Instead what I am seeing from my software (in some cases) is that the point mass traces an elliptical path.
Why is that? I assume I haven't made some sort of coding error!
The position of the point mass when we start is for M springs
(\sum_{j=0}^{M-1} cos \Theta_j * k_{j}, \sum_{j=0}^{M-1} sin \Theta_{j} * k_{j} )
If we then move one of the springs to some new position (say it is the first spring)
The position is now
(\sum_{j=1}^{M-1} cos \Theta_j * k_{j} + \sum_{j=0}^{0} cos \Theta_j * k_{j}, \sum_{j=1}^{M-1} sin \Theta_{j} * k_{j} + \sum_{j=0}^{0} sin \Theta_{j} * k_{j})
This still seems to describe a circle to me. If we pick any spring (not just the first as in the example) and move it a full 360° I still only intuit a circular path.
Any advice and corrections would be appreciated!
 
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With this sort of a description, how do you think an ellipse would look?
 
OldEngr63 said:
With this sort of a description, how do you think an ellipse would look?

Oh, I assumed people in this forum were familiar with basic analytic geometry. Let me explain.
You see, in general, an ellipse has parametric form
x=a cos \Theta
y=b sin \Theta
In my example problem we see that with some simplification we have a similar expression.
In my software experiments I am seeing the point mass trace an elliptical (non-circular) path. I am essentially 100% sure I do not have a software error and so I am wondering if I made an algebraic mistake which is leading me to an incorrect assumption?
 
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How do you get your expression for the position of the point mass? I would expect the solution of some quadratic equation (as the spring length is related to the euclidian distance) as the position.

Do you use the same equation in your simulation?
Maybe your formula is wrong - if the simulation uses a different method, this could explain the difference.

Instead what I am seeing from my software (in some cases) is that the point mass traces an elliptical path.
I assume that you mean an elliptical path with non-zero eccentricity, otherwise it would be a nice joke ;).
 
mfb said:
How do you get your expression for the position of the point mass? I would expect the solution of some quadratic equation (as the spring length is related to the euclidian distance) as the position.
its just Hooke's law, basically, F=-kx. We have multiple springs so we have a sum of the forces.
The position x is given with the trig functions because the springs are arranged in a co-circular way.
 
x in F=-kx is the length deviation from equilibrium. You cannot assume that all your springs are connected in the coordinate origin and have a length of 0 in the equilibrium (which is what you do, if I read the formulas correctly).

Edit: After writing down some formulas, I think that you really underestimate the complexity of an exact solution. Are there any additional things you can use? Do you know the approximate number of springs? Do you know how large the movement of the mass is, compared to the ring radius? Much smaller than the radius?
 
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