Adiabatic compression at a constant rate

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical modeling of adiabatic compression of an ideal gas within a cylindrical container, focusing on deriving the force as a function of time under constant compression rate. Participants explore the relationships between pressure, volume, and height in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a question about deriving the force function during adiabatic compression, emphasizing the constant rate of height change.
  • Another participant suggests using the equation P V^gamma = constant to approach the problem, but this is met with confusion regarding its relevance.
  • A participant clarifies that pressure is a function of volume, which is dependent on height, and proposes that the relationship between pressure and force can be established through volume.
  • Definitions of adiabatic processes, volume, gauge pressure, and force are provided, leading to a proposed equation for force as a function of time.
  • One participant expresses satisfaction with the derived equation but seeks clarification on the algebraic manipulation leading to the final expression.
  • Another participant reiterates the algebraic steps to derive the force equation, emphasizing the straightforward nature of the manipulation involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the clarity of the mathematical relationships or the relevance of certain equations. There is ongoing confusion and requests for clarification on the derivation process.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the application of specific formulas and their derivations, indicating potential gaps in understanding the relationships between the variables involved.

Darvaz
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I came up with this question a while ago, and my Physics teacher and I just can't get the math to work.

Here it is:

A cylindrical container of base area A and height h holds some number of moles, n, of an ideal gas. One end of the container is movable, and a force F is applied to that end. If the rate of compression of the gas is constant, i.e. the derivative of h with respect to time is constant, and the process is adiabatic, what is the equation of F as a function of time?

If this isn't clear enough, let me know.
 
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Using

P V^gamma = constant

seems to solve the problem in a straightforward way...
 
I don't see how. I was unfamiliar with that formula, so I looked it up and read the proof, and I don't really see how it relates to the question. Could you be more explicit, please?
 
gamma = ratio of specific heats for an adiabatic compression.

So you have the volume as a function of time or did I misunderstand that? So A is a constant and volume is a function of h. If you have h, you have volume, and you have pressure also because pressure is dependent only on volume. Pressure is a function of h.

It doesn't matter how fast h changes. Pressure (and thus the force) is a function only of volume. You should be able to come up with an equation that relates pressure (and thus the force) with volume, right? From there, it should be easy to relate volume to time. They are linearly dependent.
 
Adiabatic process definition:

P_{\left(t\right)}V_{\left(t\right)}^{k}=P_{\left(0\right)}V_{\left(0\right)}^{k}

Volume definition:

V_{\left(t\right)}= A h_{\left(t\right)}

Gauge pressure definition:

P_{\left(t\right)}=P_{\left(0\right)} + \Delta P_{\left(t\right)}

Force definition:

F_{\left(t\right)}=\Delta P_{\left(t\right)}A

Height definition (given; C = constant):

h_{\left(t\right)}=h-Ct

Then (if I didn't make any mistake):

F_{\left(t\right)}=P_{\left(0\right)}A\left[ \left( \frac{h}{h-Ct} \right)^{k} -1 \right]
 
jack action said:
F_{\left(t\right)}=P_{\left(0\right)}A\left[ \left( \frac{h}{h-Ct} \right)^{k} -1 \right]

This almost clears it up, the graph looks roughly like what we expected and everything. My one question is this: How did you get algebraically from the given equations you posted to this one? The unit-less factor, h/h-Ct etc, specifically.Thanks for your help and patience.
 
Darvaz said:
This almost clears it up, the graph looks roughly like what we expected and everything. My one question is this: How did you get algebraically from the given equations you posted to this one? The unit-less factor, h/h-Ct etc, specifically.


Thanks for your help and patience.

Just start with this:

F_{\left(t\right)}=\Delta P_{\left(t\right)}A

Then use P_{\left(t\right)}=P_{\left(0\right)} + \Delta P_{\left(t\right)} to replace \Delta P_{\left(t\right)} and so on. That's pretty straightforward manipulation.

Just remember that h_{\left(0\right)}=h_{\left(t=0\right)}=h-C \left(0\right) = h
 

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