Adiabatic or Isobaric process?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the thermodynamic processes involving an ideal gas (helium) in a cylindrical vessel with a massless piston, specifically addressing whether the process is adiabatic or isobaric when the ambient pressure is suddenly tripled. Participants explore the implications of thermal insulation and the nature of the gas compression.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario where the ambient pressure is suddenly increased, leading to confusion about whether the process is isobaric or adiabatic.
  • Another participant states that the equation PVγ = constant applies only to equilibrium adiabatic processes, suggesting that the rapid change invalidates its use.
  • Some participants argue that the process is not truly isobaric, as the final pressure differs from the initial pressure, and the gas pressure is not uniform during the rapid compression.
  • There is a discussion about the role of viscous forces during rapid deformation and how they contribute to the overall stress in the gas, affecting the energy dissipation.
  • One participant questions whether the non-equilibrium nature of the process can be inferred from the problem statement or if it is general knowledge.
  • Several participants express confusion and seek clarification on the correct approach to determine the final volume ratio of the gas after the pressure change.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the process can be classified as isobaric or adiabatic due to the rapid change in pressure and the resulting non-equilibrium conditions. Multiple competing views remain regarding the applicability of certain thermodynamic equations and the nature of the gas behavior during the process.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in applying certain thermodynamic principles under non-equilibrium conditions and the complexities introduced by viscous forces. There are unresolved questions about the assumptions made in the problem statement and the implications for the gas behavior.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and professionals interested in thermodynamics, particularly those exploring the nuances of gas behavior under rapid changes in pressure and the implications of adiabatic versus isobaric processes.

  • #61
To address this, I'm going to take off my Member hat and put on my Physics Forums Mentor hat. Part of my responsibility as a Physics Forums Mentor is to make sure that the correct information is made available to the members, so that neophytes to a subject are not led astray. I don't mean to be rude or harsh, but I have to be frank with you. You seem very very off base on your understanding of thermodynamics, and I recommend for you a thorough review of the subject (at least the first and 2nd laws). The gaps in your understanding are too broad to cover within the format of a Physics Forums thread. So, after I respond to this post, I'm going to close the present thread.

Let'sthink said:
I agree again Sir, But Cp(T2-T1), is it not a reversible heat transfer?
Generally, this equation does not describe heat transfer at all. It describes the change in enthalpy per mole ##\Delta h## of an ideal gas between two thermodynamic equilibrium states. For an irreversible process, it applies only to the two end states. For a reversible process, since all the intermediate states are also thermodynamic equilibrium states, it applies to all intermediate states as well
Or you say it is irreversible heat transfer that will take place in a real process?
Irreversible heat transfer will take place in a real process.
It is reversible heat transfer through reservoirs of infinite thermal capacity at temperatures increasing steadily from T1 to T2 in infinite infinitesimal steps.Then using the fact that internal energy is a state function this heat transfer must be equal to the work done in the actual irreversible process. What I wish to state Sir is whenever we use integration to calculate either work done by the system or heat supplied to the system we make use of the concept of a reversible process only.
In the process being discussed in this thread, the system is adiabatic, so there is no heat transfer taking place at all (that is the definition of adiabatic). And there are no reservoirs, and the zero heat transfer is not equal to the finite amount of work done.
 
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  • #62
Philip Koeck said:
I might have a way of solving the original problem via the entropy, but I'm not sure it's right. Anyway, the idea is this: The entropy of the surroundings is constant. If we imagine a reversible process between the same initial and final state, the entropy of the system is also constant (This might be be the problem.), since the total entropy has to be constant. Now we can use the Sackur-Tetrode equation to write down the entropy of the system for initial and final state and equate them. Then we also have the ideal gas law to eliminate the temperature in initial and final state. The result I get is V2 p23 = V1 p13. Does that make sense?
This is an adiabatic irreversible process, so entropy is generated within the system, and the change in entropy of the system is positive. Therefore, any reversible process between the same two end states must involve heat transfer to the system. It is therefore impossible to devise an adiabatic reversible path between the two end states of an adiabatic irreversible process.
 
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