Advice on Testing Out of Alg II for Pre-Calc in High School

[jbmiller]

I'm currently a freshman in High School, and saddly I was forced to take Geometry this year. For years I've been wanting to move up a math class. Our school offers a chance to test out of a course. So, this means that I would be testing out of Alg II to get into Pre-Calc as a Sophmore. I'm also enrolled to Pre-AP Chem and Pre-AP Physics for my sophmore year and I think being in Pre-Calc would help me a significant amount more than Alg II. Basically I'm asking for advice on rather or not to test out or stay in Alg II. In case you wondering, yes, I am assuming that I even pass the test-out.(I would be taking an online summer course for Alg II, so it isn't like I would go into the test completely blind). Also, would anyone advise taking AP Chem and AP Physics my Juniour year?

Pre-AP = Pre Advanced Placement.
AP = Advanced Placement.
Thanks, Josh.

 

[Vorde]

I am/was in a similar position to you (currently a Junior) so I can only give you my experience, but hopefully it can help.

The deal with Algebra II is that you will be expected to know it cold in pre-calc, and especially in calculus. I personally have skipped a math class (though not Alg II) and my experience is that if you are positive that you know the material than skipping a class can do nothing but help, but if you don't actually know the material you are skipping, it could be disastrous.

My school runs in half year semesters which means I never had to face the problem, but my advice would be decide if you truly do want to skip the class that you take the summer course very seriously, and I would also recommend renting an algebra II textbook (college libraries often have them) to help with that.

Regarding APs, its harder and an increased workload, but I along with several people I know take AP level classes junior year and don't have trouble with it. If you are up for the challenge, I would say go for it.

I hope my advice can help, though in the end it should be what you feel would be most beneficial.

 

[jbmiller]

Thanks for the help, and I would be getting an Alg II book from my school to use during the summer.

I have about 3 weeks of wrestling camps that would require me to be away from home during the summer, I do have a laptop so the online courses would still be a green light.

One of them is for two weeks in Pennslyvania(I live in Kansas). It would be very difficult to take the online courses and complete the course work with 7 hours a day of constant wrestling, but I feel as if I don't dedicate myself to getting into Pre-Calc it will harm me in the future with various things.

What course did you skip, and how would you rate the complexity of Alg II and Pre-Calc?

 

[QuarkCharmer]

What exactly is algebra II? Basically everything before precalculus? So parabolas, zero product property, factoring, polynomial division, and that sort of thing?

If that's the case, and you have the time, and you are SURE that you will stick with it, I would suggest you just skip it. Learn the topics on khanacademy or from a textbook, do a TON of examples and make sure you are comfortable with EVERY topic. You really need to be a master at all that sort of stuff.

 

[RoshanBBQ]

Algebra II is not that hard, so you should test out of it. As for physics AP your junior year, you should only do that if you are taking AP calculus your junior year. AP physics is a calculus-based physics course to be taken with AP calculus (normally during your senior year). AP chemistry, on the other hand, is easy mathematically, so you can take it with no difficulty your junior year as long as you understand algebra I. In fact, the only reason people do not take AP chemistry their sophomore year alongside AP biology is that they are usually taking non-AP chemistry their sophomore year.

 

[jbmiller]

Our school is set up differently, were required to take Bio our Freshman year. Or else that would of been a possibility, and yes I do hope to take AP calc my junior year. Thats why I need to take Pre-Calc my sophmore year!

Can any of you guys give me recommendations for good science/engineering colleges? It would be GREATLY appreciated.

 

[Bearded Man]

What's the date of the Pre-Calc test? You could teach yourself Algebra II by the start of July, assuming 8+ hours of studying per day in the summer (in addition to around 20 hours a week from now until the end of the school year) then teach yourself precalc in the roughly 50 remaining days of summer (from July 1st - August 20th) assuming 8 hour days again. If there are 180 school days, class for 1 hour a day plus one hour of homework comes out to 360 hours, which is less than the 400 hours (at least) you could put in over summer.

 

[Vorde]

What exactly is algebra II? Basically everything before precalculus? So parabolas, zero product property, factoring, polynomial division, and that sort of thing?

If that's the case, and you have the time, and you are SURE that you will stick with it, I would suggest you just skip it. Learn the topics on khanacademy or from a textbook, do a TON of examples and make sure you are comfortable with EVERY topic. You really need to be a master at all that sort of stuff.

I would highly recommend khanacademy, I skipped Calc 1 and khanacademy helped me out incredibly while self-teaching.

On a slightly unrelated note, I'd actually never heard of the zero product property until you just mentioned it, though of course I knew the idea. I'm surprised my teachers have never used that word before.

 

[moouers]

Just out of curiosity, why do you want to do calculus junior year and not senior year?

 

[jbmiller]

Bearded Man, I am not looking to test out of Pre-Calc, Just Algebra II.

Vorde, I've looked into khanacademy, but I've also seen various sites with summer courses on them for alg II that have textbook(e-books).

 

[Vorde]

I would definitely advise the summer course, but if you ever want some extra conceptual support khanacademy is a great supplement.

 

[jbmiller]

Thanks for the help, hopefully this all goes through on the up-side!

Vorde, have you conducted any research for physics or anything to that extent?

 

[Vorde]

I haven't, though I've applied for a research internship this upcoming summer. I know people who have done it earlier than me however and I think the general consensus is the earlier the better. But I didn't have any interest in doing it until now.

 

[RicciFlow]

Hi,
I had a similar situation to you at one point. Personally, I was very glad to test out of my high schools pre-calculus class as opposed to the algebra-2trig course. But if you haven't dealt with trig yet, and that is the primary focus of Pre-calc, then you should consider self teaching the algebra two and knowing it to the dot. Personally when I went to test out of pre-calc, I actually ended up doing more than just that and taught myself calculus 1 and 2 in the process. The nice thing about teaching yourself is that you will be able to go as fast as you feel able. Also, this is the site I used to teach myself most of these things: http://tutorial.math.lamar.edu/ Good luck to you! :)

 

[jbmiller]

Thanks RicciFlow!

Vorde, would you recommend doing research my sophmore summer? And how exactly do you get into a research intership?

 

[victor.raum]

You seem smart. You can probably jump straight into Calculus 1 over the summer If you already know some basic algebra, and know how to graph simple functions. Any advanced algebra you run into while studying calculus you can probably pick up on the fly (provided you have an algebra text close at hand, or an internet connection).

I left high school very early age for example. I never even finished Geometry, let alone Algebra, Algebra II, or Pre-Calc. Yet, the first time I picked up a calculus text I didn't find it all that difficult.

I'm not saying I'm a genius or anything. It's just that learning the basics about derivatives and integrals in Calculus 1 doesn't require you to do any advanced algebraic tricks. It's more about being able to internalize abstract new concepts like ratio stabilization and infinite sums (respectively). Being able to do that is really just a function of being interested enough to put in the required time and brain power.

When you see your first differentiation problem in your Calculus 1 textbook it will probably be teaching you how to differentiation the function f(x)=x^2. Yet, none of the matrix math, vectors, advanced polynomials, trigonometry, complex numbers, logarithms, or exponentials that you learn about in Algebra II or Pre-Clac will be of help to you on that problem, because all that is required to start Calculus 1 is really just some *very* basic algebra and a hefty pool of motivation.

If you'd like, PM me and we can swap IM address. Maybe we can talk for a bit and I can try to judge if you have those requisite basic algebra skills. I can even give you an informal intro to basic Calc 1 ideas if it looks like you're ready, and if you're willing.

 

[jbmiller]

I will definitely PM you so we can further talk about this.

I'm not to sure, but I think the education systems were accustomed with have their differences. Would my pre-calc be equilivent to your calc 1?

And with the topic of textbooks, my school would provide me with an Alg II book.

The test out for Alg II is in the first week of August, meaning that I would have from the start of summer to further educate myself with the required Alg principles.

Also, I would really appreciate your help via IM.

 

[Bearded Man]

You seem smart. You can probably jump straight into Calculus 1 over the summer If you already know some basic algebra, and know how to graph simple functions. Any advanced algebra you run into while studying calculus you can probably pick up on the fly (provided you have an algebra text close at hand, or an internet connection).

I left high school very early age for example. I never even finished Geometry, let alone Algebra, Algebra II, or Pre-Calc. Yet, the first time I picked up a calculus text I didn't find it all that difficult.

I'm not saying I'm a genius or anything. It's just that learning the basics about derivatives and integrals in Calculus 1 doesn't require you to do any advanced algebraic tricks. It's more about being able to internalize abstract new concepts like ratio stabilization and infinite sums (respectively). Being able to do that is really just a function of being interested enough to put in the required time and brain power.

When you see your first differentiation problem in your Calculus 1 textbook it will probably be teaching you how to differentiation the function f(x)=x^2. Yet, none of the matrix math, vectors, advanced polynomials, trigonometry, complex numbers, logarithms, or exponentials that you learn about in Algebra II or Pre-Clac will be of help to you on that problem, because all that is required to start Calculus 1 is really just some *very* basic algebra and a hefty pool of motivation.

If you'd like, PM me and we can swap IM address. Maybe we can talk for a bit and I can try to judge if you have those requisite basic algebra skills. I can even give you an informal intro to basic Calc 1 ideas if it looks like you're ready, and if you're willing.

He could learn Calc 1 over the summer, but I don't know if he should. It might be best to wait until he's more "mathematically mature" and introduce him to calculus a la Spivak or Apostol instead of teaching him differentiation like "carry down the exponent and subtract one...".

OP, what do you want to do with your life? Or what do you want to be when you grow up?

 

[Broccoli21]

He could learn Calc 1 over the summer, but I don't know if he should. It might be best to wait until he's more "mathematically mature" and introduce him to calculus a la Spivak or Apostol instead of teaching him differentiation like "carry down the exponent and subtract one...".

OP, what do you want to do with your life? Or what do you want to be when you grow up?

I'm not sure that this is the right way to go about things. I personally skipped alg II and precalc and went right to calculus, but at a more calculatory (no pun intended) level, then later did Spivak & Apostol. I think this is actually optimal, as it gives more intuition to applications, and allows further studies in differential equations at an earlier time (you don't need Spivak level calc to do ODEs). Even if he wants to be a mathematician, what's wrong with replacing pre-calc with elementary calculus?

 

[Vorde]

I skipped straight from Trig to Calculus 2, and I definitely benefited from the skip, but I wouldn't advise skipping pre-calc and Alg II. Even though its possible to self-teach all of it, to be proficient in calculus you really need to be super comfortable with all math before it, so I think I wouldn't advise skipping pre-calc as well as Alg II.

 

[Mépris]

Check this out. They have a set of exercises for each chapter which are designed for one to evaluate whether they'd need the courses. So, check it out and see where you can jump in. I find the problems challenging enough.

 

[RicciFlow]

You seem smart. You can probably jump straight into Calculus 1 over the summer If you already know some basic algebra, and know how to graph simple functions. Any advanced algebra you run into while studying calculus you can probably pick up on the fly (provided you have an algebra text close at hand, or an internet connection).

I left high school very early age for example. I never even finished Geometry, let alone Algebra, Algebra II, or Pre-Calc. Yet, the first time I picked up a calculus text I didn't find it all that difficult.

I'm not saying I'm a genius or anything. It's just that learning the basics about derivatives and integrals in Calculus 1 doesn't require you to do any advanced algebraic tricks. It's more about being able to internalize abstract new concepts like ratio stabilization and infinite sums (respectively). Being able to do that is really just a function of being interested enough to put in the required time and brain power.

When you see your first differentiation problem in your Calculus 1 textbook it will probably be teaching you how to differentiation the function f(x)=x^2. Yet, none of the matrix math, vectors, advanced polynomials, trigonometry, complex numbers, logarithms, or exponentials that you learn about in Algebra II or Pre-Clac will be of help to you on that problem, because all that is required to start Calculus 1 is really just some *very* basic algebra and a hefty pool of motivation.

I would like to second this. But I would still suggest learning trig sooner rather than later. Thre are a lot of identities and such that I have used, at least as a math major, that have been very useful and are very nice to have in your head. Of course the calculus can be learned easily with just a basic algebra understanding and no use of trig, but there is a lot of nice things with some of the basics if you remember and appreciate them after learning them.

I would also like to offer my experiences through PM as well if you would like. By the time I graduated my High school I had taken a very thorough Differential Equations course. So, I have a different perspective on this kind of thing since I had to stay in high school the whole time.

 

[jbmiller]

Im just going to skip Alg II, saddly our school doesn't offer Calc BC. So my junior year I would take AP Calc AB, but that would leave my senior year for an open math class.

 

[RoshanBBQ]

Im just going to skip Alg II, saddly our school doesn't offer Calc BC. So my junior year I would take AP Calc AB, but that would leave my senior year for an open math class.

Do you have an AP statistics you can take your senior year? Another alternative is not taking a math class. There's nothing wrong with that.

Why don't you do this:
take calculus junior
AP physics senior

The AP physics will be sort of like a math class, and you will benefit having completed your calculus AP before entering AP physics. You can then insert all your other classes around this idea.

 

[Bearded Man]

You can self study BC, especially if you've already taken AB.

 

[jbmiller]

Thats a great idea Bearded Man, thanks.

RoshanBBQ, I plan on taking AP Calc, AP Physics, and AP Chem my junior year. And yes our school does offer AP statistics, would that be a good choice for my senior math class?

 

[Vorde]

Something else to consider: for students on the upper track in math at my school, they finish all math courses at the end of junior year, like you said would happen to you.

What my school does have for seniors though is letting seniors take math classes at the nearby college. I'm not sure if your school does/could offer a similar thing, but it might be worth asking about. Because of the relationship my school has with the nearby colleges I can take Multivariable Calculus/Linear Algebra senior year, and even college physics/astronomy courses as well.

As a note though, I have the luxury of having a car, which is the only way it's really practical for me to go to college classes in between normal ones. Just a factor I would consider.

 

[jbmiller]

I currently do have a car, my Grandpa was generous enough to provide me with one. Even and a young age(I got it when I was 13).

I will definitiley ask my school about the college courses. The good thing is that I'm still a Freshman, so I have plenty of time to consult with my conselour.

Also, our school doesn't have a science or math club(sad I know), and me and one of my friends are probably going to make them come our sophmore year.

Along with a couple other clubs. Any ideas on clubs?

 

[Mépris]

Also, our school doesn't have a science or math club(sad I know), and me and one of my friends are probably going to make them come our sophmore year.

Along with a couple other clubs. Any ideas on clubs?

Again: do something you enjoy. It's pointless to say you've founded so and so club and then not write anything about it or not show much interest in it. Since you like math, a math club would be a cool thing to do. Then, what will you be doing in the math club? Just homework or doing exercises in advance? Or perhaps you might want to look for some more challenging problems and eventually move on to problems found in various math competitions. You might think of different ideas to approach what you learn in class and have everyone share their own methods. Perhaps you've found a great new book which goes in more depth and you could work through that.

Explore your interests and take it from there. Some girl talked about her essay for Harvard and how that got her in. It was about improvising a saxophone solo right after she had missed a note and drew a few parallels with that and her daily life. Go and be awesome. Don't stress yourself so much. Have fun. Carpe diem.

 

[RoshanBBQ]

Again: do something you enjoy. It's pointless to say you've founded so and so club and then not write anything about it or not show much interest in it. Since you like math, a math club would be a cool thing to do. Then, what will you be doing in the math club? Just homework or doing exercises in advance? Or perhaps you might want to look for some more challenging problems and eventually move on to problems found in various math competitions. You might think of different ideas to approach what you learn in class and have everyone share their own methods. Perhaps you've found a great new book which goes in more depth and you could work through that.

Explore your interests and take it from there. Some girl talked about her essay for Harvard and how that got her in. It was about improvising a saxophone solo right after she had missed a note and drew a few parallels with that and her daily life. Go and be awesome. Don't stress yourself so much. Have fun. Carpe diem.

Does Harvard tell you why the accepted you, or is she just assuming?

 

[Mépris]

Does Harvard tell you why the accepted you, or is she just assuming?

I don't think so - my understanding is that "decision" letters are generic (perhaps in the case of acceptance, financial aid offers might be included or maybe that would be in a separate e-mail). However, I'd say that the guess is as good as can be.

Admissions to selective colleges are very random, as has been often pointed out (inc. some members here who went to such colleges). I can think of a few things that are certain though:

1) They remain academic institutions and as such, academic prowess is of utmost importance.

2) They're looking to *build a community* and one has to be the kind of person that looks like they'll fit into that community.

One's application consisting of a high school transcript, standardised test scores, recommendation letters, a few essays, list of extra-curricular activities and perhaps an interview, if there is one. Applicants to Harvard and other selective schools do not tend to have any issues with "1)". Guess what, in the application, satisfies criteria "2)"? Sure, a huge list of activities can look impressive but, in my opinion, it does not carry as much weight if the applicant cannot show why their activities are important to them and the only way to do that, it would seem, is through (one of?) the essays and/or the interview.

This might be an interesting read. While the OP does not work for Harvard, he does work for a selective liberal arts college. Apparently, an experienced counsellor will spend about three minutes on a whole application. I'd be surprised if academics alone could get one in. I bet that of those three minutes, only a minute (maybe less) is spent looking at grades, scores and list of extra curricular activities. Actually, somebody who works in the admissions office at MIT (Chris, I think), said that they only give a brief look at academics, and if they conclude that the applicant looks like he's able enough, they won't bother going back there again. Jbmiller, if you're interested in that school, it might be interesting to search physicsforums.com (using google) for posts on the subject. Twofish-quant and Vanadium 50 went there; they made a number of posts on applying and life there, in general.
What he (OP on that thread I linked) says will reflect their own practices but I wouldn't be surprised if similar ones were to be used elsewhere, at say, Harvard, who received about thirty thousand applications last year. (34285, actually)

 

[jbmiller]

Well I really enjoy math and science, so those seem like clubs I will definitaley be apart of/create.

We would probably do problems, really challening problems. Also, with that, we would do a lot of coursework/homework.

 

[Mépris]

Well I really enjoy math and science, so those seem like clubs I will definitaley be apart of/create.

We would probably do problems, really challening problems. Also, with that, we would do a lot of coursework/homework.

The problem sets on Art of Problem Solving seem like they'd be a little harder than what would be usually set in high school. I went to a high school that was considered to be "hard" and I never had such problem sets to complete. Have fun!

 

[jbmiller]

Thakns, hopefully everything works out!