Alternator for Low Wind Speed Wind Turbine.

[MechaMZ]

but as what they state here, http://energistar.com/FE1012U%20(404).pdf

the alternator able to generate 53W with 260rpm(4m/s), but with a horizontal wind turbine.

 

[ank_gl]

MechaMZ, You need to understand that no matter what kind of alternator you use, you can't produce energy which is not there, because you are not "producing" energy, merely transforming wind energy to electrical energy.
Its the turbine size you should be worried about, maybe blade profile etc etc

 

[MechaMZ]

MechaMZ, You need to understand that no matter what kind of alternator you use, you can't produce energy which is not there, because you are not "producing" energy, merely transforming wind energy to electrical energy.
Its the turbine size you should be worried about, maybe blade profile etc etc

ya, thanks for remind, i knw tht we can't create energy.
just because I want to reduce the losses as least as i could.

any suggestion for the gear type?

 

[ank_gl]

just because I want to reduce the losses as least as i could.

any suggestion for the gear type?

I am afraid the more you add gearboxes, more you are going to increase losses. Keep in mind, smaller the number of units, more is the efficiency.
Only way i see to increase the output is to increase the blade area, and its profile. I think Mech_Engineer already said this.

MechaMZ, do you know that a wind turbine in very 'windy' conditions is feathered(AoA is made close to zero) to reduce the speed below a minimum safe level??

 

[MechaMZ]

a wind turbine in very 'windy' conditions is feathered(AoA is made close to zero) to reduce the speed below a minimum safe level??

not very understand, could you further explain?

btw, now my rpm is around 160 at 4m/s, I'd have to increase it to 260. So I think gearbox is needed. of course I will increase the blade size as well :)

but what are the factors actually will affect the rpm?

 

[ank_gl]

btw, now my rpm is around 160 at 4m/s, I'd have to increase it to 260. So I think gearbox is needed. of course I will increase the blade size as well :)

No No, you are still doing the same mistake, increasing the speed won't do you any good, as the torque will be decreased. Alternator demands both torque and rpm(remember power = torque*angular velocity), it is this energy that will be converted to electrical energy.

not very understand, could you further explain?

A wind turbine works in varying environmental conditions, so if it were to operate at a constant blade pitch, its rpm would vary, but you already know that power generated has a fixed frequency, so the rpm of the turbine needs to be controlled, to give a preset frequency of AC produced.
The rpm is controlled by what is known as feathering, ie, the pitch of the blade is varied as to give a defined rpm for the unit. That is why during very windy condition, blades are almost parallel to the flow, and during calm environment, they are almost perpendicular to the wind.

I haven't actually seen a wind turbine, so I really don't know that much, just a bit of theory. Someone else may be able to describe it better i guess

 

[Isarmann]

The description is more-or-less on-target, but if you've not seen a wind turbine feather itself, well, there are differences. Only the extremely large (50kW-to-1MW) wind turbines actually feather their blades like a variable-pitch aircraft propeller does--- that kind of complex gearing is never used (at least, that I've seen) on the smaller wind turbines we're talking about. With these smaller ones, the way that they feather is to move the entire propeller disc off-angle to the wind. The tail always follows the wind, of course, so some kind of hinge arrangement allows the turbine head and blades to fall off in one direction; off the tail's axis, as it starts to overspeed.

This whole discussion in the last few comments keeps making me think that vertical-axis turbines are most appropriate to your concerns--- they're much more torquey than horizontal styles, and it's fundamentally easier to vary blade pitch, especially in orientation to the wind... I think they're more efficient overall; but for you, they're definitely more tolerant of gearing.

It sounds like you already have something built, though, eh? A lot of this type of discussion, I've found, will say things that are true but more idealized than neccesary... Although it's possible to make a mistake that will keep the whole thing from functioning at all, it should be said that a lot of things (like gearing, for example) while not perfect, will work, to a greater or lesser degree... it just depends on what kind of issues you're willing to 'take the loss' on, and which you want to design around and prevent.

 

[ank_gl]

No again, you are still missing the point.
What I wanted MechaMZ to do, is, this "feathering", "windy" thing in reverse. Increase the AoA(angle of attack equivalent to decrease in pitch).

Come to think of it, I am having a hard time imagining the pitch for a vertical axis wind turbine, how does one describe the pitch of a VAWT??

I actually have seen how feathering works, in my fluid systems lab, & variable stator vanes of the LPC(low pressure compressor) on V2500Jet Engine. I only meant i haven't seen a wind turbine in action.

Isarmann, I didn't get this, "The tail always follows the wind, of course, so some kind of hinge arrangement allows the turbine head and blades to fall off in one direction; off the tail's axis, as it starts to overspeed."
Could you please explain??

 

[Isarmann]

I just meant that the head, with the turbine blades attached to it, bends off-axis from the wind-- as little as 30 degrees will spill the wind from the blades; they all stall. Look at it this way: if you can't vary the pitch of an individual blade, how do you turn that blade edge-on to the wind? Tilt the entire disc, and all of the blades at once-- their pitch doesn't change, but they'll be facing edge-on to the wind.

 

[Redbelly98]

btw, now my rpm is around 160 at 4m/s, I'd have to increase it to 260. So I think gearbox is needed. of course I will increase the blade size as well :)

but what are the factors actually will affect the rpm?

Connecting the turbine to a generator will slow down the rpm.

Using a gearbox to increase the rpm is like shifting to a higher gear on a bicycle. And, connecting the turbine to a generator is like riding your bicycle up a hill. If you go to too high a gear, you will not be able to pedal up the hill, and actual rpm becomes zero. Likewise, using a gearbox to increase rpm could actually make the thing run slower (or even stop) when you attach the generator.

There will be an optimum gear for a given wind speed.

edit added:
Given the low winds you are working with (2-3 m/s or 4-7 mph), you would require a relatively low gearing, compared to having the same turbine in say a 15 m/s wind.

 

[taylaron]

simple friction or a transmission. VAWT design

A VAWT designed around a helix is commercially built by "helix wind" [as mentioned previously] they have a youtube video at:
the great thing about this design is that it works in any wind direction; no need for a tail.
personally, I think that the helix wind is a beautiful piece of art and science. something that i would like to have on my roof (one that doesn't cost $6,500 to get...like this one)
notice the size of the alternator they have on the base of it in the movie... I know this thing is big but i didn't expect an alternator that size on it... any ideas?
Room for a transmission?

some sort of simple transmission work regarding this problem of having too much speed? I am not talking about the complexity and size of a car engine; just a simple transmission like that on a bike.

I just watched an episode of How its made on TV, they were making electric wind generators (HAWT) and to solve this problem they had a device that is mounted on the axle of the drive shaft and when the shaft is spinning too fast, the increase in centrifugal force activates a spring mechanism which increases the friction on the drive shaft and the alternator head.
something like this could be crudely made.

the helix wind could be simply made by using pvc pipe and some rip-stop nylon; on top of making your own alternator.
on the movie it almost looks like the "fins" on the turbine are a stack of the same fin, just mounted in a way that it forms a helix. you can see the gaps of light in the movie if you look closely. it appears that the fins are mounted on 2 metal bars that go up the vertical axis of the generator, to form a helix it looks like they are bent in a way that the fins rotate along the horisontal axis while moving up on the drive shaft.

----------------------
simply cutting a HUGE piece of PVC pipe or an oil drum in half down the long axis, and sticking them together to form a VAWT is a simple yet effective way to do this. much less work than building a sail etc...
youtube it... they have how-to videos about it.
along with part 2.
although with this design, you would have to stack 2 sets on top of each other perpendicular to each other in order for it to work with any wind direction effectively.

 

[MechaMZ]

No again, you are still missing the point.
What I wanted MechaMZ to do, is, this "feathering", "windy" thing in reverse. Increase the AoA(angle of attack equivalent to decrease in pitch).

Come to think of it, I am having a hard time imagining the pitch for a vertical axis wind turbine, how does one describe the pitch of a VAWT??

I actually have seen how feathering works, in my fluid systems lab, & variable stator vanes of the LPC(low pressure compressor) on V2500Jet Engine. I only meant i haven't seen a wind turbine in action.

Isarmann, I didn't get this, "The tail always follows the wind, of course, so some kind of hinge arrangement allows the turbine head and blades to fall off in one direction; off the tail's axis, as it starts to overspeed."
Could you please explain??

thanks, I will take note for this. By the way, for the shaft connection between turbine and alternator, I should use gear directly or belt such as timing belt?

 

[MechaMZ]

Hi

I've a wind turbine which have to run under a very low wind speed, from 2-3m/s.

Currently, I'm using Envirotek V20, the result is around 1.5V-2.5V, and current is 0.3mA or nearly zero.

My aim is to achieve 50W.

Any suggestion for the alternator which I should use?
p/s: without aided by any gear arrangement.

thanks a lot.

I made a mistake, should be generate 50W in 12hours.

 

[taylaron]

I made a mistake, should be generate 50W in 12hours.

with how much surface area facing the wind and how many turbines do you plan to use?
i would suggest you use deep cycle NiCd batteries for your storage unit.
vertical wind turbines are great (highly recommended) try making one out of pvc pipes and rip-stop nylon. you will have to make a chamber in which to soften the pvc pipe so you can bend them into the desired form for the fins. i will post pictures of the one I'm building currently later.
i would also suggest using a belt system depending on the alternator you use and how much torque from the wind you're getting. you don't want to 'burn out' your alternator (if you can...) from going too fast. i'll also see if i can upload some CAD drawings for reference.

good luck

 

[taylaron]

commercial wind turbines

Does anyone here think that it would be possible to mass produce a wind turbine that could be mounted to your roof for mainly suburban areas?
great designs like that of the Helix Wind http://www.helixwind.com/en/ are perfect, but the cost of 6,500 dollars isn't helping any

Am i correct in saying that this is the kind of modification that has to be kept in mind when designing the house you intend to supply energy to? because of the storage, conversion, AC-DC, and all that; and that it is the contractor companies that should be making this transition effort?

 

[conntaxman]

Glade to find this site.Im bilding a vawt, wind turbine.the alternator is a two rotor with 12 magnets on each rotor and a stator with 9 coils.The coils will have 200 windings of number 14 magnet wire.The turbine will have 3 blades ,each blade with 2880 sq inches. I am hoping for 12 volts at about 200 rpm in about a 3 to 5 mph wind. I have a pic of it in another fourm at
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-1000-watt-wind-turbine/?comments=all&sort=OLDEST#comments
I didn't build the coils yet because I Broke my leg about 12 weeks ago.Not smart.
Would like some comments on the coil size / rpm
Tks
Johnny

 

[WindGenerator]

If you want a viable wind turbine and not a hobby project then use a real windmill, like horizontal three blade turbine. I DO understand that the vertical captures the imagination of folks trying to do things different and better, but with a vertical your backside is creating drag. You also cannot as effectively apply the force of leverage to the shaft like a normal windmill can. Think of the force at the shaft with a long blade in a stiff wind.. x 3 blades. You can't get this with vertical, that's why there are no giant vertical windmill farms anywhere.

Atleast not yet. Just like anyone else, I look at all the vertical designs too. I think.. must be some way, and maybe there is. But you must know that vertical turbines are nothing new, one that works well, that would be new. Pound for pound $ for $ the good old horizontal design is best if you want performance in a turbine.

 

[Heaven Net]

My research on this subject led to an inescapable conclusion: The only way to get the kind of efficiency desired is to build the alternator yourself.

There is basically no possibility of buying an 'off-the-shelf' alternator that doesn't make tradeoffs you're not interested in.

An alternator's efficiency can be improved in several ways, but none of them are very likely to have been found worthwhile for commercial uses. Using the strongest magnets possible is a big one (rare Earth magnets), designing the rotor and stator to be as close together as your methods permit is another, using three-phase power (more efficient generation) is a biggie... and biggest of all; if you design an alternator with a specific turning speed, friction load, and output in mind, you can get much further along than any 'savings' in time or effort that would accrue from buying your alternator 'as-is'.

I can see how you might think alternator design and building is a daunting task, but I assure you, it's worth it... and probably not as difficult as you might first think.

Let me put it this way: If you try everything else suggested and still see only minor improvements/ negligible output, then how reasonable would it sound to suddenly achieve what you wanted at the cost of 'merely' building an alternator? Put in a thousand man-hours with nothing to show for it and I'll wager that even a "herculean" 100-hour-effort will seem like nothing, if that's the price for success.

There are useful data on this subject available; let me know if you're interested.

 

[Bob S]

I read that the Envirotek V20 VAWT Savonius rotor is 30 cm wide (diameter) by 90 cm high. It is rated at 8 watts for 2 to 3 mps wind speed.
The basic formula for the achievable power from a VAWT is
W =(1/2) βρAv³ watts
where β = Betz max theoretical efficiency (0.593), ρ = density of air = 1.2 Kg/m³, A= area = 0.27 m², and v = velocity (m/sec).
Max efficiency for Savonius rotor is about 20% (with a very narrow blade-tip speed window).
Plugging in numbers, I get 0.88 watts at 3 m/sec wind speed. Do you get a different number?
The recommended rotor tip speed is about 1 times wind speed, so at 3 m/sec wind speed, the rotor should turn at 20 radians per sec or 190 rpm. Do you agree with this?
I presume the alternator you want should be very efficient at this rpm, so you want lots of poles. Will the alternator need a thrust bearing to support the rotor load (weight)? How much thrust?

α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π ρ ς σ τ υ φ χ ψ ω

 

[mgb_phys]

so you want lots of poles. Will the alternator need a thrust bearing to support the rotor load (weight)? How much thrust?

Favorite technique seems to be 20-30 small high-strength magnets around the hub of a car wheel bearing (usually a Volvo) and a lot of home wound coils.

 

[dr dodge]

now I have a question:
mythological given constant(s) wind force/turbine size/speed/number of coils/magnets

does increasing the diameter of the magnetic rotor increase its power output because of increased velocity over the coils?

dr

 

[taylaron]

The short answer is no.
It takes more energy to turn a rotor of a larger size often because it houses larger magnets and because it takes more energy to move electrons through more coils. To my understanding, the factor that you are concerned about should be the strength of the magnetic field produced by the rotor, the number of turns on each of the coils, the number of coils and the magnitude of the magnetic field (assuming permanent magnets are used). In basic, it takes more energy to turn a larger alternator. For instance, if you have a pinwheel tied to a 1'' diameter rotor, you may be able to rotate it. if you attach a rotor that is 12'' in diameter, it would be much harder to turn because of the required torque to provide momentum on the pinwheel. even if they weigh the exact same amount. I suggest looking up torque and momentum.
Remember, energy can not be created nor distroyed, so simply increasing the rotor size will not always give you more energy than with a smaller one. The size and diameter of the rotor affects the number of coils, turns in each coil, the rpm of the rotor and the torque required to induce momentum on the rotor.
Hope I helped

-Tay