An anomaly in high-impedance inductors

[magnetite]

Hello, first post here,

my passion is electric motors, wind turbines, etc ... yes i am very boring !

I've been testing coils for my motor design for a couple of years now.

I've written my own software to predict inductance, etc as well as the physical properties of the coils.

I've recently noticed something that has me a bit puzzled, though i think i am now coming to an understanding of it.

When i wind a coil of very high inductance (on the order of 5 Henrys plus) and attach it to a load for testing, the generator rotor increases in speed and the input current goes down (i am powering the generator with a bench PSU, in its final instance i plan it to be run from diesel).

For a while this puzzled me, until a friend pointed out that a coil of high inductance will increase the time constant.

The time constant of an inductor being :

TC = L/R1+R2

Where :

TC = Time Constant
L = Inductance
R1 = DC Resistance of coil
R2 = DC Resistance of load.

The TC equates to about 63% of the risetime and in 5 TC's the risetime is around 98%.

This means we can control the timing of the counter-electromotive-force by varying the coils self-inductance.

This in turn means that we can retard or delay the equal and opposite reaction dictated by Lenz's Law.

I think what is happening (i don't yet own an oscilloscope) is that the risetime of the inductor is delayed enough so that the CEMF is helping the rotor acceleration rather than hinder it.

It's an extraordinary effect, and i don't think it's down to core saturation as my core is made of high quality, M6 grain-oriented steel laminations and they are experiencing about 50% saturation (they can run to 1.3 Tesla, i am running them at about half of that).

But the effect doesn't appear at low frequencies, with these coils it only happens at around 300Hz and above.

I can attach a small, incandescent bulb, the bulb then lights up but the rotor speeds up and the input current from my DC PSU goes down !

I know that inductors behave more and more like capacitors as they are driven at higher frequencies, this 'parasitic capacitance' effect is designed out of items like audio amplifiers because it introduces unwanted noise, so I'm thinking that's maybe why no one i ask has heard of this weird effect before.

Any input greatly appreciated, as it is rather odd !


All the best,

DC.

 

[jim hardy]

We need a sketch.

The picture in your mind is crystal clear to you
but your words have only painted a jumble in mine.

What are you describing? A motor or a generator? or just a coil?
How does your PSU produce rotation, or does it?
Is this 5 henry coil a part of your rotating machine?
if so is your machine a motor or generator or alternator?
Or your coil connectted between the machine and the load?
What is nature of the load?

But the effect doesn't appear at low frequencies, with these coils it only happens at around 300Hz and above.

As frequency increases your apparent inductance will decrease somewhat . That's because eddy currents in iron oppose the changing flux, so its 'effective' permeability is less.

Re-read you post today with benefit of last night's sleep and see if you can make it more clear.

old jim

 

[magnetite]

OK Jim.

I think the best thing to do would be to show the anomaly.

I'll create a youtube account and make a video.

 

[jim hardy]

You can also set one up at photobucket or some such place,
draw a sketch , scan it, save it there

and use 'insert image'..

 

[alphysicist]

Hello DC,

Thank you for sharing your observations and findings with us. As a fellow scientist, I find your discovery very intriguing and I appreciate your dedication to understanding and exploring this anomaly.

It seems that you have already made some progress in understanding the cause of this effect by considering the time constant and the delay in the counter-electromotive force. However, I would suggest further investigation and experimentation to fully understand and confirm your hypothesis.

One possible explanation for this phenomenon could be the presence of parasitic capacitance in your high-impedance inductors. As you mentioned, inductors can exhibit some capacitive behavior at higher frequencies, and this could be contributing to the delay in the counter-electromotive force. This is something that could be explored further with an oscilloscope or other equipment to measure the exact behavior of the inductors at different frequencies.

Another factor that could be contributing to this effect is the design and construction of your inductors. It is possible that there are some unique properties or characteristics in your coils that are causing this anomaly. It may be beneficial to compare your inductors with other high-impedance inductors and see if there are any noticeable differences.

Overall, your discovery is certainly interesting and warrants further investigation. I would encourage you to continue your research and experimentation to fully understand and potentially utilize this effect in your motor designs. Who knows, you may have stumbled upon a new and innovative technique that could benefit the field of electric motors and wind turbines.

Best of luck in your endeavors and keep us updated on any new developments.

Sincerely,