An argument against Godelian anti-computationalism

  • Thread starter T S Bailey
  • Start date
  • Tags
    Argument
In summary, Roger Penrose argues that a human mathematician's understanding of the Godelian argument does not necessarily mean they know that G(G) is non-terminating. This is because the function F that determines their mathematical ability may not be known to them, and knowing this information enables them to determine that G(G) is non-terminating. This argument raises questions about the computability of F and the implications for computationalism.
  • #1
T S Bailey
26
0
I came across this argument on thinkinghard.com: "
To make the contradiction obvious, let the human mathematician who understands that G(G) is non-terminating be the same human mathematician for whom F determines their mathematical ability. If the mathematician was a robot, telling them that G(G) is non-terminating would cause a genuine increase in their mathematical ability. But Roger Penrose claims that the mathematician already knows G(G) is non-terminating, because they understand the Godelian argument.

I will show that this is not the case. We must return to basic principles. The task assigned to the function F is the following -

  • Given program X and data Y, determine if X(Y) does not terminate.
The human mathematician is given X=G and Y=G, with G defined such that G(x)=F(x,x) where F is the function that describes the mathematician's mathematical ability. The mathematician does not know that F is the function that describes their mathematical ability, unless we tell them so. If they did recognise F, then their understanding of the Godelian argument would allow them to determine that G(G) derived from F is non-terminating.

If we tell the mathematician that F is the program determining their mathematical ability, then we are giving them extra information, and that is what enables them to state that G(G) is non-terminating, apparently going beyond the capability determined by F.

We can just as easily program a robot mathematician to accept claims made by trustworthy parties about things that the robot does not already know, for example that a function F is the function that determines that robot's mathematical ability. But the moment that the robot accepts that information, F goes out of date as a description of that robot's mathematical ability."
Doesn't this argument beg the question by assuming that a human's mathematical ability could be determined by F? Wouldn't F necessarily be computable, and if so, wouldn't postulating it's existence be the same as concluding that computationalism is correct?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2
T S Bailey said:
Doesn't this argument beg the question by assuming that a human's mathematical ability could be determined by F? Wouldn't F necessarily be computable, and if so, wouldn't postulating it's existence be the same as concluding that computationalism is correct?
Hi T S:
My opinion about the question you ask is that it is philosophical rather than mathematical. Watch out for the overseers.

Regards,
Buzz
 

1. What is Godelian anti-computationalism?

Godelian anti-computationalism is a philosophical argument that claims that human minds are not equivalent to computers, and therefore, cannot be simulated or replicated by digital computers. It is based on the mathematical incompleteness theorems of Kurt Godel, which suggest that there are certain truths that cannot be proven within a formal axiomatic system.

2. How does Godelian anti-computationalism challenge the idea of artificial intelligence?

Godelian anti-computationalism challenges the idea of artificial intelligence by suggesting that human intelligence is not purely computational and cannot be replicated by machines. It argues that there are aspects of human thought and consciousness that cannot be captured by algorithms or programming.

3. What is the main counterargument against Godelian anti-computationalism?

The main counterargument against Godelian anti-computationalism is that computers have already been able to perform tasks that were previously thought to require human intelligence, such as playing complex games and recognizing patterns. This suggests that there may not be a fundamental difference between human and artificial intelligence.

4. Can Godelian anti-computationalism be proven or disproven?

Godelian anti-computationalism is a philosophical argument and therefore cannot be proven or disproven in a scientific sense. It is based on interpretations of Godel's theorems and is open to different perspectives and critiques.

5. How does Godelian anti-computationalism impact the development of artificial intelligence?

Godelian anti-computationalism has sparked debates and discussions about the limitations of artificial intelligence and the possibility of achieving true human-like intelligence in machines. It may also influence the direction of research and development in the field of AI, as scientists consider the implications of this argument on the potential of creating intelligent machines.

Similar threads

  • Set Theory, Logic, Probability, Statistics
2
Replies
54
Views
4K
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
8
Views
470
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
3
Views
286
  • Set Theory, Logic, Probability, Statistics
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • Set Theory, Logic, Probability, Statistics
Replies
5
Views
967
  • Science and Math Textbooks
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • Set Theory, Logic, Probability, Statistics
2
Replies
56
Views
2K
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
1
Views
505
  • Calculus and Beyond Homework Help
Replies
24
Views
3K
  • Programming and Computer Science
Replies
32
Views
3K
Back
Top