An Exceptionally Technical Discussion of AESToE

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  • #401
Kea said:
Here is a link to the slides of a talk by Batanin:

http://www.maths.mq.edu.au/~street/BatanAustMSMq.pdf

I downloaded this. It looks as if this defines a Bianchi identity of sorts. I will of course have to digest this more before I can comment further. Yet this might provide some machinery in addressing the holonomy issue for spaces with noncompact group structures.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
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  • #402
Hi Guys,

Been away for some weeks, very quiet between the leatherback turtles. Gave me a lot of time to re-think Garrett’s work and my own comments in the past.

I am now convinced that we should abandon triality. We don’t need it and we cannot use it, because the groups become too big (what I understand). I have come up with a different scheme.

My starting point is that we really use D2-grav and D2-EW as fully commuting groups with commuting quantum numbers. Garrett himself says so in his paper, but in a sneaky way Garrett “glues” the left and right-handedness of these groups together, that really kills its potential. In principle it should be possible to have quantum number “left” in D2-grav and “right” in D2-EW. Come up with that later.

Because I abandon triality I do not require F4 or D4. Only the product of two D2 groups and a strong group are required. I also use the “w” quantum number actively, that probably adds a U(1) or so. That is for the group theory people to fill in. A lot of new particles of Garrett’s paper turn out to be third generation leptons or quarks. Only some frame-hiiggs are new, not a bad thing!

I start with the concept of “building blocks” for the elementary particles, made up from the separate groups. These are not necessary physical states, but the product of some of them (equivalent of the adding of the E8 root numbers) produce physical particles.

Not all physical particles turn out to be E8 root numbers (12 in total). This is nothing to worry about, because this is the same for the Z-0 or the photon; they are not part of the starting symmetry either. This should be caused by some breaking mechanism.

All physical bosons have a degeneracy (can be made off two or four combinations of “building blocks”).

Main other differences with Garrett: (x.phi) particles are really quarks, some frame-higgs are really gen-3 leptons. Other gen-3 leptons turn out to be the w-L/R and B-+/- particles (or visa versa).

Issues to work on:
- What is the group structure I use?
- How do I fix the frame Q# for the gen-2 leptons and quarks? My feeling is that just a different choice of frame gauge can fix this (change the coordinate system)! I ask for your comments!
- Should all particles have w-L/R Q# different from zero and should we “frame them” with extra w-L/R quantum numbers?

Jan
 
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  • #403
Berlin said:
I am now convinced that we should abandon triality. We don’t need it and we cannot use it, because the groups become too big (what I understand). I have come up with a different scheme.

My starting point is that we really use D2-grav and D2-EW as fully commuting groups with commuting quantum numbers... Only the product of two D2 groups and a strong group are required...
Jan
You can go up to D3-grav and D3-EWS, that gets you gravity translations (and conformal transformations/dilation) plus a group with the strong/color bosons. I think though you still want the big group with triality in order to have one group from which you can get the two D3s. The big group also can give you a group for fermions and quantization (and maybe an emergent spacetime).
 
  • #404
Now with attachment...

Did not manage to include the attachment earlier.

Jan
 

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  • #406
Some re-shuffling..

I have re-shuffled assignments so that for gen-1 and 2 fermions the gravitational left-right quantum numbers are OK. It seems that for gen-2 leptons and quarks you have to find a theory where the w-3 and B13 Q# are interchanged. Therefore it seems logical to look at the left-right symmetric theories like the left-right extension of the ew or things like trinification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinification

For gen-3 leptons it seems like you have to interchange the w-3, B13 and B2 Q# (J matrix carl used with the preons). For gen-3 quarks its more difficult.

Someone an idea to proceed?

Jan
 

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  • #407
CarlB said:
Regarding triality, there seems to be some work on replacing the 2 of complex numbers with the 3 of something else. See:
http://kea-monad.blogspot.com/2008/03/extra-extra.html

I had a thought that the triality or MUB system might have something to do with the three bases for the Dirac field on CL_{3,0} with complex vectors, bivectors and trivectors constructed from the Pauli matrices.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #408
Lawrence, I ended up looking at the relation between E8, Jordan algebras of 3x3 matrices of octonions, triality (which for the 3x3 Jordan algebra defined matrices amounts to a shuffling of the matrix elements), the 3x3 circulant primitive idempotent complex matrices, and the Koide mass formulas yet again. It is a little too much for me to chew, but there are a couple of papers that gave an idea of what is going on and what it has to do with string theory. The papers I ran into were these:

The exceptional Jordan algebra and the matrix string
Lee Smolin
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0104050

The Geometry of Jordan Matrix Models
Michael Rios, 2005
http://arxiv.org/abs/math-ph/0503015

I ended up looking at this from reading the Wikipedia article on Heisenberg's matrix mechanics. The Koide formula is related to what Heisenberg did in that the circulant 3x3 matrices are the density matrix version of three basis states [i.e. the three states (1,w,ww)/sqrt(3) where w is a cube root of unity] for a 3-d Hilbert space that happens to be MUB with respect to the usual diagonal (1,0,0), (0,1,0), (0,0,1) basis. And the Fourier transform is equivalent to diagonalizing a 3x3 circulant matrix as Kea pointed out:
http://kea-monad.blogspot.com/2007/10/m-theory-lesson-108.html

Anyway, the circulant matrices used in Koide's mass formula turn out to be of the form one would get if one put O_0 = O_1 = O_2 in the 3x3 matrices of octonions in either of the above papers. The triality defined on equation (7) of the Smolin paper turns out, when applied to the Koide density matrices, to be an identity. [It basically cycles the _0 to _1 to _2 and since these are equal, it leaves these matrices unchanged.]

When that triality is applied to the other density matrix basis set for 3-d Hilbert space mentioned above, that is, the diagonal primitive idempotents: (1,0,0), (0,1,0), (0,0,1), the action is to cyclically commute these three elements.

But a 3-d Hilbert space MUB contains 4 basis sets. It turns out that the action of Smolin's triality on the third and fourth basis sets also permutes the elements while preserving the basis set [that is, the action is like the action on the diagonal primitive idempotents]. The 3-d Hilbert MUBs are listed (in state vector form) near the bottom of this blog page:
http://carlbrannen.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/qutrit-mutually-unbiased-bases-mubs/

So as far as this goes, it seems to me that the natural assignment for the triality operator mentioned in Smolin's paper, in the context of the Koide mass formulas, is that it changes color charge R -> G -> B -> R. [And so I don't think this is the triality that changes generation number.]
 
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  • #409
CarlB said:
Lawrence, I ended up looking at the relation between E8, Jordan algebras of 3x3 matrices of octonions, triality (which for the 3x3 Jordan algebra defined matrices amounts to a shuffling of the matrix elements), the 3x3 circulant primitive idempotent complex matrices, and the Koide mass formulas yet again. It is a little too much for me to chew, but there are a couple of papers that gave an idea of what is going on and what it has to do with string theory. The papers I ran into were these:

The exceptional Jordan algebra and the matrix string
Lee Smolin
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0104050

The Geometry of Jordan Matrix Models
Michael Rios, 2005
http://arxiv.org/abs/math-ph/0503015

What we can do is to form a three way basis just within the quaternions from

<br /> \sigma_i,~\sigma_i \sigma_j,~\sigma_i\sigma_j\sigma_k<br />

which forms alternative quaternionic bases, and definitions for i~=~\sqrt{-1} which give a "three-basis" structure to the spinor field. With the octonions, or E_8, there is a triplet structure which can be given by the "27" E_6 or the Jordan algebra.

I hope in the not too distant future to do a bit of a right up on this. To be honest I pursue a lot of physical thought with regards to these things. I have a site here on Physics forums on Information Preservation in Q-Gravity where I have presented some of the physical issues. This is a complementary to the more mathematical discussions here, which tend to involve irreps of groups.

More later,

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #410
Diane Demers sends me the following articles thinking (rightly) that I would find them of interest with respect to triality:

Remarks on Circulant Matrices and Polynomial Number Systems
http://www.clifford-algebras.org/v2/v22/GARRET22.pdf

Ternary Algebras and Groups
http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.5368

The Cubic Chessboard
[about ternary relations]
http://arxiv.org/abs/math-ph/0004031

Geometric tri-product of the spin domain and Clifford algebras
http://arxiv.org/abs/math-ph/0510008

Jordan structures and non-associative geometry
http://arxiv.org/abs/0706.1406

A Program for the Geometric Classification of Particles and Relativistic Interactions
http://prof.usb.ve/ggonzalm/invstg/pblc/clsfcn.pdf

Diane's interest is in non associativity, for example:

Nonassociative Algebras
http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/~c70202/jordan/archive/bremsur/bremsur.pdf
 
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  • #411
CarlB said:
Anyway, the circulant matrices used in Koide's mass formula turn out to be of the form one would get if one put O_0 = O_1 = O_2 in the 3x3 matrices of octonions in either of the above papers. The triality defined on equation (7) of the Smolin paper turns out, when applied to the Koide density matrices, to be an identity. [It basically cycles the _0 to _1 to _2 and since these are equal, it leaves these matrices unchanged.]

Yup, a while back I mentioned the use of 3x3 circulant matrices over the octonions and its possible relevance. After all, if one restricts the octonions to a complex subalgebra, the Koide mass formula applies directly. As one can always diagonalize Hermitian matrices, triality transformations can be studied by acting on orthonormal sets of primitive idempotents. I did this for the diagonal primitive idempotents and found that the triality transformations actually correspond to the three embeddings of SU(2) in SU(3). In the octonionic case, the full automorphism group of the Jordan algebra is no longer U(3) but F_4, so triality emerges from a triplet of representations of SO(9) in F_4.

Triality is thus related to the three inequivalent ways of picking out one of the off-diagonal elements for matrices of the 3x3 matrix Jordan algebras. Or equivalently, triality is related to the three inequivalent ways of transforming sets of primitive idempotents while leaving one invariant.

In recent years, studies of extremal black holes in D=5 N=2 homogeneous supergravities (http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0512296" ) have revealed that the entropy of BPS black hole solutions can be calculated as:

S=\alpha\sqrt{det(X)}

where X is an element of a 3x3 matrix Jordan algebra. Triality transformations are in general not determinant preserving, so can lead to an entropy change for black hole solutions. However, in the special case of 3x3 Hermitian circulants, triality transformations leave the determinant and hence the entropy invariant. This leads me to suspect that circulants play a very important role in N=2 homogeneous supergravities. Moreover, the application of the Koide formula to extremal black holes might also provide a new perspective on the lepton generations. After all, from the stringy perspective, there isn't much difference between elementary particles and black holes (http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9504145" ).
 
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  • #412
I have indicated I would post some work related to this. On my part in PF

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=115826&page=2
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=115826&page=3

I have some work leading up to this. I take a more physical perspective here than what is contained in these rather highly mathematical papers. However, the last entry here is to be followed up with how this gauge theory over SU(4) leads to a knot equation, or HOMFLY. There appears to be Jone and Conway polynomials involved here, and where the three-way (triality) is involved with J^3(V).

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #413
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
There appears to be Jones and Conway polynomials involved here, and where the three-way (triality) is involved with J^3(V).

Agreed. Rather, a doubly categorified form of the knot invariants is involved. Thanks for the links.
 
  • #414
Kea said:
Agreed. Rather, a doubly categorified form of the knot invariants is involved. Thanks for the links.

I am trying to frame this based on physical grounds. I'd have to say that I think that quantum mechanics and general relativity are relationship systems between particles. We tend to be confused about the role of theories. In particular general relativity is not about the dynamics of points per se. One can take a point x on two choices of spatial manifolds with two different spatial metrics g_{ab}(x) and g&#039;_{ab}(x) and then push these forwards by ADM geometrodynamics you get two different points as the evolute. General relativity is not about the dynamics of points, but of the relative displacement or dynamics between two particles, such as with the geodesic deviation formula. We measure the motion of bodies such as the planet Mercury, or the orbits of neutron stars. The geometric constructions exist as models by which we can understand this dynamics, the simplest being in the weak field case

<br /> \frac{d^2x^i}{ds^2}~=~-{\Gamma^i}_{tt}U^tU^t~\simeq~-\frac{GMx^i}{r^3}<br />

which is Newton's second law of motion for the force of gravity.

Quantum mechanics is another relationship system, and in fact this too is blind to geometry, but only has a representation in spacetime that does respect the causality conditions of relativity. The nonlocality effects of quantum mechanics are free of geometric constructions as entanglements can occur across any distance, and in the case of the Wheeler Delayed Choice experiment along any time direction.

How these two relationship systems are unified is of course the crux problem of quantum gravity. It is not hard to show that general relativity through the Schild construction and Quantum mechanics for spin systems have a GF(4) content, which is the Dynkin diagram for the D_4.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #415
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
I am trying to frame this based on physical grounds.

Yes, I appreciate that. We are also trying to do this, and I very much agree with your remarks about relationalism. For my part, I spent a good part of the 1990s thinking about 4D analogues of topological Chern-Simons path integrals (and hence knot invariants) and other work of Witten et al, which led perhaps to too much of an obsession with the mathematics, but then I do believe our concept of QG observable hinges on some very abstract categorical definitions and that it is somewhat clearer now than a few years ago. There are many ways to skin Schroedinger's cat. Although our language is very different, our (meaning you, Carl, Matti, me, kneemo et al) physics seems to me to be quite closely related.

If you like, you can translate singly categorified to cohomological and doubly categorified to triality invariant.
 
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  • #416
Kea said:
Yes, I appreciate that. We are also trying to do this, and I very much agree with your remarks about relationalism. For my part, I spent a good part of the 1990s thinking about 4D analogues of topological Chern-Simons path integrals (and hence knot invariants) and other work of Witten et al, which led perhaps to too much of an obsession with the mathematics, but then I do believe our concept of QG observable hinges on some very abstract categorical definitions and that it is somewhat clearer now than a few years ago. There are many ways to skin Schroedinger's cat. Although our language is very different, our (meaning you, Carl, Matti, me, kneemo et al) physics seems to me to be quite closely related.

If you like, you can translate singly categorified to cohomological and doubly categorified to triality invariant.

The CS Lagrangian comes into play with conformal gravity. The E_6 embeds an SU(4) and an SU(2), where the SU(2) is a QCD-like gauge theory which when reduced to spacetime is multiply connected. Spin fields on the conformal spacetime have multiple connections to each other which are not determined by the geometry of the SU(4), something similar to a non-Erdos network --- which the internet is also an example of. We might think of these multiple connections as quantum wormholes. At low energy these multiple connections are lost and the "relationship" between spin fields is more akin to an Erdos net. I hope to post more details on this by the end of this weekend.

Interesting if by Matti you mean Pitkannen (sp). He has this idea that p-adic numbers or Merssene primes play a central role in QFT. These do enter into coding systems, but I think somehow he takes things to strange extremes. In writing to him 10 years ago or so he seemed a bit inflexible on some of his more outlandish conclusions. There might be a kernel of something real in his ideas, but he then appears to carry the ball off into bizarre areas of the playing field.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #417
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
We might think of these multiple connections as quantum wormholes. At low energy these multiple connections are lost and the "relationship" between spin fields is more akin to an Erdos net.

Yes, I meant Pitkanen, and I also confess to finding his exposition difficult. Actually, your first paragraph reminded me a lot of his ideas on the role of CS. I have not come across Erdos nets, so I will look it up.
 
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  • #418
Kea said:
Yes, I meant Pitkanen, and I also confess to finding his exposition difficult. Actually, your first paragraph reminded me a lot of his ideas on the role of CS. I have not come across Erdos nets, so I will look it up.

I would have to look again at Pitkanen's ideas to see what he says about the CS lagrangian.

The Erdos net, due to Paul Erdos, applies for Ising spin systems under the nearest neighbor interaction. Yet for some phase transitions this approximation ends and the interaction strength becomes scale invariant. There every spin couples to others equally. If you go to my site on this forum

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=115826&page=2

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=115826&page=3

you will see how I related this to Landau electron liquids and a possible universality of all spin fields under scale invariant fluctuations. In the non-Erdos net every node is weighted equally with all others.

From a human communications perspective a similar phase transition has been underway. Before the 20th century communications were by post and went from town to town, where the strength of communications were weighted heavily on proximity. So prior to the 20th century the communications network was pretty much an Erdos net. This began to change with with the telephone and radio, and now has dramatically changed with the internet, where now communications can be global and one can communicate with anyone anywhere with more or less equal ease. Some nodes, eg webpages, blogs etc, are more heavily weighted than others, but weights are not determined much by geographic factors or distance.

As one who is employed in the IT and programming field (darn --- not employed doing physics!) I do consider the networked, internet and cyberconnected world which has emerged in the last couple of decades as a fascinating model for phase transitions, Ising-like systems and universal scaling principles in physics.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #419
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
I do consider the networked, internet and cyberconnected world which has emerged in the last couple of decades as a fascinating model for phase transitions, Ising-like systems and universal scaling principles in physics.

Hmm. If the new world knowledge base is a model of a phase transition, then presumably it is a phase transition in an epistemological sense. Very Hegelian, which I like. And temperature is Time in some cosmic sense. Again, sounds interesting. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that any concrete models of the internet are sufficiently rich to be comparable to gravity, since I at least am guilty of a fairly classical view of the interconnectivity of the internet.
 
  • #420
Kea said:
Hmm. If the new world knowledge base is a model of a phase transition, then presumably it is a phase transition in an epistemological sense. Very Hegelian, which I like. And temperature is Time in some cosmic sense. Again, sounds interesting. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that any concrete models of the internet are sufficiently rich to be comparable to gravity, since I at least am guilty of a fairly classical view of the interconnectivity of the internet.

The idea is based on analogy. Clearly quantum gravity will be more general in the algebraic symmetries of the interconnected network, while the internet is more complex according to the parsable information sent.

Time is temperature for complex or imaginary valued time. On my area referenced above I indicate how this is involved with quantum phase transitions. This is something which should be universal with all spin system. I think the universe is defined by a set of unitarily inequivalent vacua and the conformal infinity for the AdS. The first is high temperature and end is zero temperature. For spacetime physics, where spacetime has an effective negative heat capacity, this is low entropy to high. Everything in between is just an information coding system which rearranged quantum-bits, or quantum gravity-bits, so as to define a holographic map between the two endpoints on the Feynman path integral. This map in between is the universe which we perceive as in a state of evolution.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #421
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
I think the universe is defined by a set of unitarily inequivalent vacua and the conformal infinity for the AdS. The first is high temperature and end is zero temperature. For spacetime physics, where spacetime has an effective negative heat capacity, this is low entropy to high.

OK, attempting to translate: the series of vacua would be Pitkanen's Planck scale hierarchy, or Riofrio's cosmology scaling hierarchy, or the n-cat complexity hierarchy. Conformal infinity for AdS presumably imposes stringy type duality conditions, but I don't see why we need a classical AdS point of view on this.
 
  • #422
Kea said:
OK, attempting to translate: the series of vacua would be Pitkanen's Planck scale hierarchy, or Riofrio's cosmology scaling hierarchy, or the n-cat complexity hierarchy. Conformal infinity for AdS presumably imposes stringy type duality conditions, but I don't see why we need a classical AdS point of view on this.

The unitarily inequivalent vacua related to each other by Bogoliubov transformations. On my information theory physics forum area

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=115826&page=3

and the page prior to this I indicate this a bit further. The conformal group emerges from the breaking of E_6, which of course emerges from the higher energy E_8. This in turn is a part of an larger error correction code system. I am not sure how this connects with Matti's idea

The evolution of the universe is a process which maps a set of inequivalent vacua, a purely quantum system of excitons, into a completely classical spacetime configuration with \rho~=~0. The universe is then a map between these voids. The complete symmetry of the universe is then some form of quantum error correction code which preserves the total quantum information through the process. The quantum error correction code is then a Golay or Goppa code, such as that defined by the Leech lattice \Lambda_{24}, which includes three E_8 heterotic groups in a modular system. One of these E_8s should be similar to what Lisi's.

A part of what I am doing is trying to build from the ground up, or to use Dennett's idea of a crane he invoked in "Darwin's Dangerous Idea," where things are built up from a lower energy domain up. This is a bit different from Tony Smith's approach where he is working from what Dennett might call a skyhook by building from high up and then down. Maybe the two approaches will result in something in common.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #423
Today, Urs, from N-Cafe Category, made a very interesting point about Lisi's theory:

http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2008/05/e8_quillen_superconnection.html#comments

"Main point, summarized.Whatever the physical viability of the proposal of arXiv:0711.0770, the expression in equation (3.1) on p. 23 is to be interpreted as a Quillen superconnection A on a ℤ 2-graded e 8 associated vector bundle and (3.2) is the corresponding Quillen curvature
F A=A 2.So if one wants to examine the possibility of describing particle physics with this approach, the mathematical structure to determine would seem to be something like “Quillen Yang-Mills theory”.

" Quillen superconnections are different from other notions of superconnections. In particular, Quillen superconnections do not come from a path-lifting property and are not related to an ordinary notion of parallel transport. For a discussion of Quillen superconnections and also of super parallel transport I can recommendFlorin Dumitrscu,

Superconnections and Parallel Transport

(pdf)."

http://etd.nd.edu/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-07212006-131339/unrestricted/DumitrescuF062006.pdf
 
  • #424
And now folks...

The trick question.

Has all this work produced any "testable" propositions, outside of what Garret started with in the first place?
 
  • #425
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
A part of what I am doing is trying to build from the ground up, or to use Dennett's idea of a crane he invoked in "Darwin's Dangerous Idea," where things are built up from a lower energy domain up. This is a bit different from Tony Smith's approach where he is working from what Dennett might call a skyhook by building from high up and then down. Maybe the two approaches will result in something in common.

Lawrence B. Crowell

Historically anyways, Tony did much like what Garrett did and started with gravity down at the D2 level. He originally had F4 at the highest level before going to E6 so his spaces could be complex instead of just real. He then made it up to E7 and E8.
 
  • #426
Cold Winter said:
And now folks...

The trick question.

Has all this work produced any "testable" propositions, outside of what Garret started with in the first place?

It would be nice to get the Pioneer anomaly well studied to check it against predictions. I personally think photon decay experiments are messed up so it would be nice to see that looked at to check against predictions. Standard model (force strengths and tree level mass) and neutrino (one step up from tree level mass) calculations already look OK to me (for Tony Smith's variation).
 
  • #427
MTd2 said:
Today, Urs, from N-Cafe Category, made a very interesting point about Lisi's theory:

" Quillen superconnections are different from other notions of superconnections. In particular, Quillen superconnections do not come from a path-lifting property and are not related to an ordinary notion of parallel transport. For a discussion of Quillen superconnections and also of super parallel transport I can recommend


Florin Dumitrscu,

Superconnections and Parallel Transport

(pdf)."

http://etd.nd.edu/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-07212006-131339/unrestricted/DumitrescuF062006.pdf

I can't find the Quillen paper. I read the start of the Dumitruscu paper. It looks to be fairly canonical differential geometry stuff. I am not sure what the "big idea" is here yet.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #428
John G said:
Historically anyways, Tony did much like what Garrett did and started with gravity down at the D2 level. He originally had F4 at the highest level before going to E6 so his spaces could be complex instead of just real. He then made it up to E7 and E8.

Mathematically he did this in the "voudou" physics. Smith has a lot of work on some representation theory along these lines, but his work IMO comes up a bit short of the dynamics end of things. I have worked out some aspects of what the breaking of an E_6 might look like with conformal gravity and spin-nets. What I have done can be found on

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=115826&page=3

I think if there are several E_8, say E_8xE_8 in string theory or three E_8's in a modular system for the Leech lattice, then there is "enough space" to describe this sort of intermediate energy quantum gravity. This appears to connect up with quantum foam and spin networks that Smolin and others have worked up with LQG. I hope to extend this to arrive at braids and higher systems in the future. In this sense I am trying to not just do pure group irrep work, but trying to tie it to physics (dynamics) as closely as possible.

It is my interest to see if there is some way to embed LQG and string/M-theory into a single system. I think LQG will provide some of the constraints on the stringy stuff that has gone in some cases into lala land.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #429
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
In this sense I am trying to not just do pure group irrep work...

Exactly the point! Classical geometry is simply not rich enough to describe QG observables correctly. If E8 comes into it at all, it is more as an exceptional mathematical structure at the heart of a classification of groups, than as a mere group.
 
  • #430
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
I think if there are several E_8, say E_8xE_8 in string theory or three E_8's in a modular system for the Leech lattice, then there is "enough space" to describe this sort of intermediate energy quantum gravity. This appears to connect up with quantum foam and spin networks that Smolin and others have worked up with LQG. I hope to extend this to arrive at braids and higher systems in the future. In this sense I am trying to not just do pure group irrep work, but trying to tie it to physics (dynamics) as closely as possible.

It is my interest to see if there is some way to embed LQG and string/M-theory into a single system. I think LQG will provide some of the constraints on the stringy stuff that has gone in some cases into lala land.

Tony does this kind of thing with a 4-dim hyperdiamond Feynman Checkerboard. The "foam" of the Checkerboard is the Clifford Algebra 8-fold periodicity where you can represent any sized Clifford Algebra as Cl(8)xCl(8)xCl(8)... Tony and John Baez had once agreed that the Lorentzian Leech lattice-like E6/F4 would make a great spin foam but there was no known way to make it foamy. You kind of have to drop down to Clifford Algebra (from which Lie Algebras are derived) to make it work.

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/FynCkb.html
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/USGRFckb.html

At high energies before the 8-dim spacetime to 4-dim spacetime dimensional reduction Tony uses E8 as his hyperdiamond lattice and there is a D-brane/string/M/F theory use for this. Interestingly Urs was involved in Tony's work with these 4 and 8-dim lattices.

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/E8.html
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/stringbraneStdModel.html
 
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  • #431
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
...or three copies of E_8 in a modular system for the Leech lattice...

One way that we count generations is via the stringy Euler characteristic of the 6 point genus zero moduli space, which is one of a twistor triple (modelled on \mathbb{CP}^{3}). Tony Smith and Matti Pitkanen (together somehow) have considered how this 18d triple descends from a 24d one based on something like 3 copies of E_8. But of course, from the category orbifold Euler point of view, the group structure is just a side issue which might end up being useful in recovering Heterotic strings, if they turn out to be useful at all. (Aside: the recovery of LQG structures is much easier to understand through arbitrary restrictions of the categorical structure).
 
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  • #432
The three E_8 are a modular system of the \Lambda_{24}. The CL(8) has the 256 elements of the 248 of E_8, or that

<br /> E_8~=~Spin(16)~+~128,~120~+~128~=~248~dimensions<br />

is contained in Cl(8)~=~1~+~8~+~28~+~56~+~70~+~56~+~28~+~8~+~1, which is the 240 of the root space of E_8, plus the 8 of the Cartan matrix, for the 248, plus 1+3+3+1 in Cl(8) not in E_8. For CL(16)~=~CL(8)\times CL(8), a triality copy has some potentially interesting properties, in particular two of these Cartan centers are involved with the interesection or Kahler form in the definition of exotic M^4's and gravitational instantons. There are a number of possible ways to decompose E_8, and it might be possible to bury supersymmetric pairs of known particles with their mirror terms, or in the exotic four manifolds this type of theory would predict, which are K^3 type manifolds similar to Calabi-Yau spaces.

The modularity of the Leech lattice is given by a weight 12 modular form (function) defined by the theta function for the E_8 lattice

<br /> \theta_8~=~1~+~240\sum_{n=1}^\infty div(n)q^{2n}<br />

where this is also the Eisenstein E_4. The Leech lattice being composed of three E_8s has a theta function cubic on \theta_8(q) as

<br /> \Theta_{24}(q)~=~\theta_8(q)^3~-~720 q^2\prod_{n=1}^\infty(1~-~q^{2n})^{24}<br />

where the numbers 240 and 720 appear prominantly.

As for spin-nets or foam, the possible system Tony considered might work. The F_4/B_4 defines the additional roots added to spin(8) to define F_4 and these roots define the map

<br /> spin(8)~\rightarrow~F_{4\setminus 36}~\rightarrow~OP^2<br />

which is a property shared by E_6 and E_7. E_6\times su(3)/(Z/3Z) and E_7\times su(2)/(Z/2Z) are maximal subgroups of E_8. where both E_7 and E_6 under signature changes contains the conformal and Desitter groups. The deSitter groups under further decomposition give E_6~\rightarrow SU(4)\times SU(2)\times U(1), where this spin gauge group is a possible model for spin connections on conformal gravity.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
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  • #433
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
The modularity of the Leech lattice is given by a weight 12 modular form...

Yes, and for the sake of other readers, let me point out again that the j invariant is also associated to a theta function triplet, related to the E8 function. However, unlike with Witten's current use of the j invariant in the context of a non-physical cosmological constant in 2+1d (AdS/CFT), it arises here in a spatial 3d setting because (a) spatial directions are associated with the triplet and (b) \Lambda is completely replaced by a cosmic time parameter. This makes his physical estimate of the black hole entropy yet another intriguing indication that group triplets, rather then groups, play an important role in the logic of mass generation.

The twistor dimension (Riemann surface) moduli triple is also interesting as a genus (0,1,2) triple, because genus plays the role of time steps, instead of the usual classical directions. These are the three time directions of, for instance, Sparling's twistor theory. In fact, all 12 dimensions of F theory are accounted for this way: 6 compactified directions from the sphere, 3 space and 1 time direction from the torus, and 2 auxiliary dimensions from the genus 2 case. I really can't understand why the string theorists keep insisting that classical geometry is more interesting than this quantum information point of view!
 
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  • #434
Kea said:
Yes, and for the sake of other readers, let me point out again that the j invariant is also associated to a theta function triplet, related to the E8 function. However, unlike with Witten's current use of the j invariant in the context of a non-physical cosmological constant in 2+1d (AdS/CFT), it arises here in a spatial 3d setting because (a) spatial directions are associated with the triplet and (b) \Lambda is completely replaced by a cosmic time parameter.

The twistor dimension (Riemann surface) moduli triple is also interesting as a genus (0,1,2) triple, because genus plays the role of time steps, instead of the usual classical directions.

There has been of late some interest in the idea that constants of physics change, or are variable. João Magueijo has suggested various schemes in which the speed of light could vary. The variability of constants is a bit odd. For instance if \alpha~=~e^2/\hbar c were determined by different values of e,~\hbar,~c, but where \alpha~\simeq~1/137 physics would be absolutely indistinguishable from what we know. So the most proper constants of nature are dimensionless ones, and if we were to track any variation in constants, dimensionless ones would be the choice of what should be detected.

The speed of light is just a conversion factor between space and time: Light travels such a distance in a certain amount of time in a fixed proportion we call c. Much the same is the case with the Planck scale which is that

<br /> \frac{G\hbar}{c^3}~=~L_p^2, <br />

where the Planck length is a conversion factor with units of cm that converts from the Dirac unit of action hbar, to c^3/G that has units of erg-s/cm^2. This is "action per unit area," which is the amount of action associated with an area associated with a black hole horizon area. This leads into Beckenstein bounds and in part what I related yesterday about a homomorphism between gravity and QM and how quantum mechanics and its unit of action hbar involves what might be called a "quantum horizon," which is a limit to the detectability of physics, HUP and so forth.

With the Planck unit if we were to half the speed of light we would find that the Planck length is increased by \sqrt{8}. Our clocks by the Planck unit of time T_p~=~\sqrt{G\hbar/c^5} would tick away at a rate \sqrt{32} times slower, which by c~=~L_p/T_p~=~1/2, would mean that we would observe nothing at all observationally changed by any rescaling of the speed of light! Interestingly if you consider electromagnetism according to Planck units (Planck units of charge, impedance and so forth) you again would observe absolutely nothing at all if you vary the speed of light. The observational consequences for changing the speed of light are absolutely unobservable. One might think that because hbar has not been changed that the fine structure constant should change. But one must realize that the h or hbar was first deduced from the Bohr radius

<br /> a_0~=~\frac{4\pi\hbar}{me^2}~=~\frac{m_p}{m_e\alpha}L_p, <br />

which would appear to change by \sqrt{8} It is assumed the masses of the proton and electron shift with the rescaled Planck mass equally. But there is a hitch here, for we and our experimental set up also rescale by \sqrt{8}, which negates any observable scale change in an atom due to the change in c. In effect the experimenters in a c~\rightarrow~c/2 world would find an \hbar&#039; and the Bohr radius so that nothing at all changes! In effect their physics published results would be indistinguishable from our own.

The speed of light is a spatial measure associated with projective rays, and these can be rescaled arbitrarily. The Planck unit of action or Dirac's unit \hbar~=~h/2\pi also has what might be called projective properties as well, though physics has not explored this terribly much, where hbar rescales (or the quantum horizon as a projective system) according to how one might change c.

This equivalency with respect to projective varieties leads us in some ways to twistor constructions. Twistor geometry is motivated by the fact lightcones are projective geometries, or the projective Lorentz group PSL(n,~C). Twistor space, or twistor theory, applies to four dimensional Minkowksi spacetime, but where the projective structure pertains to the conformal group spin(4,~2)~\simeq~SU(2,~2). The conformal space is six dimensional R^{4,2}, and the blow up of a point in this space is PR^5 (signature information suppressed). The twistor space is constructed from this projective null space, which is the holomorphic twistor space. The projective twistor space contains the null space, with there being PT^\pm massless \pm helicity states of massless particles. The null projective space is a subspace of the projective twistor space, which has 5 real dimensions, where four of these are complex or components of two complex dimensions. The PT^\pm have the same dimension, but have a twist or helicity state.

This leads to some interesting prospects with spin systems. I argue on

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=115826&page=3

that a spin-net for gravity exihibts a quantum phase transition. This is related to how spin fields, such as those associated with twistors, exist on a Fermi surface. This surface also has some topological features. A space of evolution, which can be a spin-net in the LQG sense, or a D-brane in the string theory (I am not partisan to either theory camp) For the space of evolution, which defines a world volume V~=~\Sigma\times M^1, where V is the evolute of the surface \Sigma, which has a target map to the spacetime or super-spacetime M^n. The compactified winding of a D-brane on this world volume is given by a unitary group U(n), where n is the winding number or coincidence number of these branes. These winding numbers define the brane charges on the voume, which define charges in K-theory groups on the manifold M^n, which are closely related to the cohomology H^p(M^n,~R). Within twistor theory for n~=~4 this is the sheaf cohomology, where these charges are the \pm helicity states or frequences for the PT^\pm subspaces of twistor geometry.

The topology of this spin space is physically similar to a Fermi surface, which is the standard system in condensed matter physics. Volvik (gr-qc/0005091) has written on how the vacuum state of quantum gravity, and what determines the cosmological constant \Lambda. What I want to show is that the K-theory index is identified with the homotopy of the group structure of the Fermi surface K(X~\subset~M^n)~\sim~\pi_k({\cal G}), for the space X of k + 1 dimensions.
 
  • #435
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
I can't find the Quillen paper. I read the start of the Dumitruscu paper. It looks to be fairly canonical differential geometry stuff. I am not sure what the "big idea" is here yet.

Lawrence B. Crowell
Urs had the same doubt on the thread, the answer is here:
http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2008/05/e8_quillen_superconnection.html#c016725

It is very enlightening to read all the thread, but you could start at this point.

It would be nice if you and others could also share your opinions on that thread.
 
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  • #436
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
The three E_8 are a modular system of the \Lambda_{24}. The CL(8) has the 256 elements of the 248 of E_8, or that

<br /> E_8~=~Spin(16)~+~128,~120~+~128~=~248~dimensions<br />

is contained in Cl(8)~=~1~+~8~+~28~+~56~+~70~+~56~+~28~+~8~+~1, which is the 240 of the root space of E_8, plus the 8 of the Cartan matrix, for the 248, plus 1+3+3+1 in Cl(8) not in E_8. For CL(16)~=~CL(8)\times CL(8), a triality copy has some potentially interesting properties, in particular two of these Cartan centers are involved with the interesection or Kahler form in the definition of exotic M^4's and gravitational instantons. There are a number of possible ways to decompose E_8, and it might be possible to bury supersymmetric pairs of known particles with their mirror terms, or in the exotic four manifolds this type of theory would predict, which are K^3 type manifolds similar to Calabi-Yau spaces.

I'd like to point this out: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2008/05/e8_quillen_superconnection.html#c016745

"We are interested in noncompact real forms (precisely which ones are listed here) of D 4×D 4. While the compact real form of D 4 has a triality symmetry, the noncompact real forms do not. In particular, d 8=h⊕k 3. In the cases of interest, k 1 and k 2 are complex, and complex conjugates of each other. There is no triality symmetry relating them to k 3. And there’s no ℤ 2 grading of the sort you claim."
 
  • #437
MTd2, Distler et al are discussing a completely different use of E8 to the kind that we have in mind.
 
  • #438
Kea said:
MTd2, Distler et al are discussing a completely different use of E8 to the kind that we have in mind.

So, this thread is totally off topic. According to the title, it should be about Lisi's theory, somehow. So, I tried something to get back on topi. But I see that I am also lost here.
 
  • #439
Kea said:
MTd2, Distler et al are discussing a completely different use of E8 to the kind that we have in mind.

Give me a day or two to respond more fully. I have yet to look into the superconductive E_8 much. As for "different uses" for E_8, that is easy to arrive at. There are multiple ways in which it can be decomposed. A part of my thinking with the modular Leech system with three E_8s is that it suggests that at high energy all possible systems may exist, and then at lower energy there is only one E_8 due to the inflaton breaking, landscape-Higgsian configuration or which ever perspective you might prefer.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #440
MTd2 said:
So, this thread is totally off topic. According to the title, it should be about Lisi's theory, somehow. So, I tried something to get back on topi. But I see that I am also lost here.

Not off topic per se. Lisi's theory might be wrong after all. It has a certain economy to it, and I suspect somehow it is not completely flawed. We do have a question to ponder as to why physics would "choose" one decomposition or irrep according to subgroups and not another.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #441
I just discovered that "kagome lattice" is being used as an approach by some people.
http://arxiv.org/abs/0711.3471
Thermodynamics of Ising spins on the Triangular Kagome Lattice: Exact analytical method and Monte Carlo simulations
Authors: Yen Lee Loh, Dao-Xin Yao, Erica W. Carlson
(Submitted on 23 Nov 2007 (v1), last revised 28 Apr 2008 (this version, v2))
-------
I saw the resemblance with the drawing on p. 15.
I'll leave it with you to evaluate the similarities.
jal
 
  • #442
Regarding triality, I had this sudden realization that triality could be related to a new kind of quantum statistics.

Given a multiparticle state with identical particles, one considers the swap operator "S" that swaps two particles. The swap operator squares to unity and so has eigenvalues of +1 (bosons) and -1 (fermions). It is a postulate of quantum mechanics that all quantum states are eigenststates of the swap operator. Any permutation may be written as a product of swaps so one finds that quantum states of identical particles are eigenstates of any permutation operator. From this one can derive the two types of quantum statistics. From quantum statistics, thermodynamics follows by counting states.

The above works great for the known particles but it is only an assumption that the postulate extends to all particles. The next least complicated alternative statistics would be defined by assuming that the quantum states are eigenstates of the "P" operator that cyclically permutes three objects. Rather than defining all possible permutations, cyclic permutation operators generate only the even permutations. Acting on a 3=particle state, the cyclic 3-permutation "C" is:

C |a,b,c> = |b,c,a>

The cyclic 3-permutation cubes to unity and so its only possible eigenvalues are cubed roots of unity. One root is real, +1, and there are two complex roots, \exp(\pm 2\pi/3).

A possibly related concept is the "tripled Pauli statistics" that Lubos Motl found when examining the thermodynamics of small vibrations of black holes. See page 21 (or page 1155) of:
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0212096v3

Motl's paper was on the edge between quantum mechanics and general relativity, so it could be that, uh, "Brannen statistics", rather than Bose statistics or Fermi statistics is needed to unify gravitation and particle mechanics.
 
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  • #443
I have recovered a conference remark of my old boss, LJ Boya, about some "siblings" (my word) of E8: Sp(1) and Oct(8).

the point is that E8 x E8 is well known to have the same dimension, 496, that SO(32).

And also happens that
Sp(1) x Sp(1) ~ O(4), with dim 6
Oct(1) x Oct(1) ~ O(8), with dim 26.

The numbers 6, 26 and 496 are perfect primes. Of course, 13 and 248 are the two extremes of the exceptional groups (Oct(1) is G2, isn't it? Smolin relies in this, in the paper hep-th/0104050, does him?). In any case, no clue about why 52, 77, and 133 have not got any similar role.

Also, note that a perfect prime is also a hexagonal number. And sBootstrap uses hexagonal numbers to fix the number of generations of particles: half of the smallest even hexagonal number. Thus I would be not surprised it 13 and 248 happened to have an interpretation as "generation number" in some models.
 
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  • #444
CarlB said:
Brannen statistics...

LOL, Carl! But according to etiquette, you should refer to it as Motl statistics, or as ternary statistics, following kneemo's terminology.
 
  • #445
CarlB said:
Regarding triality, I had this sudden realization that triality could be related to a new kind of quantum statistics.

I had thought of some similar ideas. The first is with supersymmetry, where if we think of a SUSY doublet \Phi~=~\phi~+~\xi\psi, for \xi,~\psi as a Grassmann variable and a Dirac field and \phi a boson field, then we can think of there being a,~a^\dagger type operators which interchange the fermionic and bosonic field. Now think of there being a field analoguos to the polarization vector in EM such that {\vec P}~=~e\sigma, and that there is a coupling of this SU(2) vector with the photon-like state operator. We would then have a covering over the SUSY states with three directions, which might imply some underlying symmetry we think of as associated with Boson-Fermion statistics.

The other idea is that the Galois field F_4 is the Dynkin diagram for D_4, and the diagram looks like a Mercedes-Benz symbol. This would then have the angular distribution you are thinking of. Oh, and BTW, F_4 is a group discription for an elementary spinor field and also is what emerges as the Galois field from the Schild's construction of general relativity. So these two ideas in some ways might connect together.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #446
arivero said:
The numbers 6, 26 and 496 are perfect primes. Of course, 13 and 248 are the two extremes of the exceptional groups (Oct(1) is G2, isn't it? Smolin relies in this, in the paper hep-th/0104050, does him?). In any case, no clue about why 52, 77, and 133 have not got any similar role.

Also, note that a perfect prime is also a hexagonal number. And sBootstrap uses hexagonal numbers to fix the number of generations of particles: half of the smallest even hexagonal number. Thus I would be not surprised it 13 and 248 happened to have an interpretation as "generation number" in some models.

These numbers are related to Mersenne primes as

<br /> 6~=~2^1(2^2~-~1)<br />
<br /> 26~=~2^2(2^3~-~1)<br />
<br /> 496~=~2^4(2^5~-~1).<br />

It is an interesting pattern. I am not sure whether this amounts to an accident of some sort or whether there is actually something going on here. If there is a connection it involves some connection between number theory and algebra nobody appartently understands.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
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  • #447
Yep, my boss put this pattern between a catalog of pending problems, in a meeting of the Royal Academy of Science of Zaragoza, a couple years ago. I independently met the question of even hexagonal numbers in the sBootstrap theory last year. So actually we have three coincidental patterns, one finite and two infinites (dimensions of exceptional groups are 14, 52, 78, 133, 248 ):

the dimension of GxG when G is an exceptional group
28, 104, 156, 166, 496
the perfect numbers (related, as you say, to Mersenne primes).
6, 28, 496, ... 2^(k-1) * (2^k -1)
the even hexagonal numbers.
6, 28, 66, 120, 190, 276, 378, 496, 630,... 2n(4n-1).

Note that some people speaks of "A1,G2,F4,E6,E7,E8." as "the traditional Cartan exceptional group sequence", thus really the number 6 is also included in the finite sequence.
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
<br /> 6~=~2^1(2^2~-~1)<br />
<br /> 26~=~2^2(2^3~-~1)<br />
<br /> 496~=~2^4(2^5~-~1).<br />
It is an interesting pattern. I am not sure whether this amounts to an accident of some sort or whether there is actually something going on here. If there is a connection it involves some connection between number theory and algebra nobody appartently understands.

Edit
6, 28, 120, 496... are also Sloane http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A006516 http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A007691
 
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  • #448
arivero said:
(dimensions of exceptional groups are 14, 52, 78, 133, 248 ):

the dimension of GxG when G is an exceptional group
28, 104, 156, 166, 496
the perfect numbers (related, as you say, to Mersenne primes).
6, 28, 496, ... 2^(k-1) * (2^k -1)
the even hexagonal numbers.
6, 28, 66, 120, 190, 276, 378, 496, 630,... 2n(4n-1).

Note that some people speaks of "A1,G2,F4,E6,E7,E8." as "the traditional Cartan exceptional group sequence", thus really the number 6 is also included in the finite sequence.

I made a type with 28~=~2^2(2^3~-~1). I had not thought about whether there are integer patterns or sequences associated with the root dimension of groups. It appears as if this pattern pertains to the complexification of these groups G(R)\times G(R)~=~G(C). I might spend a little bit of time numerically generating these numbers to see whether this gives patters with the dimensions for the Leech lattice and its subgroups. For dim(\Lambda_{24})~=~196560 is divisible by 32760, 196560 -:- 32760 = 6, and 32760 ~=~2^7(2^8~-~1). It is hard to know if there is really something here of interest to physics, or whether this is numerology.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
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  • #449
As I told elsewhere, in my case the hexagonal number pattern appears when you ask for the sBootstrap conditions, a coincidence between bosonic and fermionic degrees of freedom that happens in the QCD string. Half of this number (ie 3, 14, 33, 60, ... ) is the number of generations needed for the sBootstrap to exist.

I suspect that some quantisation of flavour will produce at least SO(32), if not E8xE8. This accounts for the 496. But no hint about Leech lattice.
 
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  • #450
Kea said:
LOL, Carl! But according to etiquette, you should refer to it as Motl statistics, or as ternary statistics, following kneemo's terminology.

The Koide formulas for the mesons are justifiable without any need for fancy statistics because a meson has only one quark and one antiquark (for the simpler mesons which are more appropriate for the formula), and these are distinguishable so there is no need for statistics. But to get the formula to apply to the baryons, I need something else. Otherwise the formulas / color bound state model can't work for things like uuu or uud baryons.

But this is a long shot idea by a complete amateur so I don't have to follow etiquette. And since Lubos has repeatedly called everyone else a complete idiot (including me) I think we can safely assume that the universe isn't going to reward Lubos with a "statistics". More to the point, the statistics he gave in his paper don't work. They're just suggestive that something strange could be going on.
 
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