Analogies between temperature and time in thermodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the analogies between temperature and time within the context of thermodynamics, prompted by a statement from Peter Atkins' abstract for a conference. Participants explore the implications of these analogies, the relevance of statistical mechanics, and the ongoing questions in the field of thermodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference Ryogo Kubo's work on the quantum mechanical partition function as a time-evolution operator in "imaginary time," suggesting a connection between finite-temperature many-body physics and zero-temperature problems.
  • There is a distinction made between statistical mechanics and thermodynamics, with some arguing that statistical mechanics serves as a microscopic foundation for thermodynamic principles.
  • One participant expresses disagreement with the notion that elementary thermodynamics has little left to discover, highlighting ongoing open questions in the field.
  • Another participant seeks specific references to literature on Kubo's ideas, indicating a desire for deeper understanding and context regarding the applications of these concepts.
  • References to relevant literature, including Coleman's book and various online documents, are provided to support the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the extent of discovery remaining in elementary thermodynamics, with some asserting that significant questions still exist while others seem to accept the initial claim of limited discoveries.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of the relationship between temperature and time, and the potential implications of Kubo's work, but do not resolve the nuances or the specific applications of these ideas in thermodynamics.

SVN
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Looking through the book of abstracts for «XXI International Conference on Chemical Thermodynamics in Russia (RCCT-2017)» I came across the abstract of talk given by Peter Atkins (University of Oxford) titled «Thoughts about thermodynamics» (you'll find the whole abstract at the end of the post). One sentence of this abstract puzzled me; it was «There are fascinating analogies, such as those between temperature and time that might reveal deep truths about the fabric of reality.» I have reminiscences of having seen remarks about the mentioned «analogies» before (I can't remember where though).

Anyway, Atkins is a heavyweight in the field of chemical thermodynamics and his words should be taken seriously. Do you have any idea what those analogies between temperature and time are (especially in context of thermodynamics)?

The text of the abstract:
Elementary thermodynamics is so well established that there is perhaps little to discover and even less to consider when instructing our students. But is that really true? In this lecture I shall explore aspects of thermodynamics that remain interesting and which open up deep questions about this mature subject and which could lie in the back of our minds when teaching our students. There are deep questions to explore, such as why the laws of thermodynamics are valid. Why, for instance, is energy conserved? Why does entropy increase? There are fascinating analogies, such as those between temperature and time that might reveal deep truths about the fabric of reality. What happens when systems of interest are so small that fluctuations dominate the most probable values? What are the origins of the fundamental constants that characterize thermodynamics, such as Boltzmann’s constant and the gas constant? Did the originators of thermodynamics introduce unnecessary complications when formulating, for instance, the concept and measurement of temperature? What are the thermodynamic properties of the electromagnetic field: how is the Sun capable of driving processes on Earth? I shall explore these thoughts: they do not really open up revisions of elementary thermodynamics, but show that by reflecting on elementary principles, deep questions arise and can stimulate how we teach and encourage our students to become questioning scientists.​
 
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SVN said:
Do you have any idea what those analogies between temperature and time are (especially in context of thermodynamics)?

Ryogo Kubo, in the early 1950s, noticed that the quantum mechanical partition function (used for many-body problems) could be regarded as a time-evolution operator in "imaginary time". That is, finite-temperature many-body physics problems can be reformulated in terms of a 'zero-temperature' imaginary-time problem. This approach he been developed over the decades and applied to a variety of problems (electron-phonon interactions, fluctuation-dissipation and linear response theories).

Now, a caveat: statistical mechanics is not a proxy for thermodynamics; statistical mechanics can be considered a microscopic foundation for thermostatics and possibly for thermokinetics. Regarding the abstract, I disagree that elementary thermodynamics has little to discover: indeed, there remain considerable open questions, ranging from the general (such as, when 'temperature' exists) to the more specific (such as, is the contact angle a thermodynamic quantity?)

Does that help?
 
Andy Resnick said:
Does that help?
It surely is. Thank you!
Andy Resnick said:
This approach he been developed over the decades and applied to a variety of problems
I would appreciate you providing me with specific reference to a monograph or a review of applications of Kubo's idea (if you have such a reference at the ready, of course)? My guess is you refer to the so-called «Thermal field theory» (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_quantum_field_theory). However, it seems weird to me that Kubo's name is not even mentioned in that article. So is there any chance you are referring to something else?
Andy Resnick said:
Regarding the abstract, I disagree that elementary thermodynamics has little to discover
Reading the abstract I got an impression that the first sentence was written for the sole purpose of underlining author's disagreement with this view.
 
SVN said:
It surely is. Thank you!

I would appreciate you providing me with specific reference to a monograph or a review of applications of Kubo's idea (if you have such a reference at the ready, of course)? My guess is you refer to the so-called «Thermal field theory» (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_quantum_field_theory). However, it seems weird to me that Kubo's name is not even mentioned in that article. So is there any chance you are referring to something else?

My reference was Coleman's book:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/book...body-physics/B7598FC1FCEE0285F5EC767E835854C8

A few online documents I found that may be of interest:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0ahUKEwimmteg6IjcAhWC64MKHQVCBqAQFghTMAM&url=https://www.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk/genomes/madanm/balaji/kubo.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2h-_VkfTEAW-ojiI-GbbYb
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwimmteg6IjcAhWC64MKHQVCBqAQFgg1MAE&url=http://eduardo.physics.illinois.edu/phys582/LRT.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0zuFsPGQVLtsD6ulbdHMkI
 
That pretty much answers my question. Thank you!
 

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