Are a lot of you math and science types poor at english

[sportsstar469]

ok, let me first say this is a genuine question that is not meant to offend anyone. i notice that a lot of you posters who excel in math and sciences and all of that hard stuff, make numerous grammar mistakes. the poster who has frylock as his avatar regularly uses the word you're when your is most appropriate. i am not a grammar Nazi by any means. this is especially true, since although i am exemplary at english i can't type for ****. however i can't fathom how someone can be so brilliant at physics, and not understand basic english concepts. unless the posters on this board are not native to the english language, which in that case kudos for being decent at it, as your second language.

 

[symbolipoint]

The post's topic title taken as a question: NO.

 

[noblegas]

I always thought that many scientists and math types were poor at english because many scientists come from countries where english is not the primary language.

 

[MissSilvy]

No. This is an example of a self-serving rumor espoused by lib arts majors in a 'I can't tell an atom from my *** but at least I can wax poetic!' way. The idea is that people are good at only one or the other is a fallacy. I can write papers, spell correctly, and I would classify my English as above-average. I am also a scientist, so clearly I'm neither a hack science student nor a gibbering moron who can't string a sentence together. In short; no.

 

[w3390]

When people post on here, I would assume most try to be short and to the point and as long as the point gets across, grammar is not too terribly important.

 

[f95toli]

unless the posters on this board are not native to the english language, which in that case kudos for being decent at it, as your second language.

I have no statistics to back this up, but I suspect something like a third of all the people who post here have English as a second language (I'm one of them).
That said, I think you´ll find that quite a few of us are better than the "average" native speaker at writing "scientific" text, i.e. explaining scientific concepts etc because we are used to that from reading textbooks, papers, talking to colleagues etc. Nowadays I rarely make mistakes when for example writing papers and proposals. However, if you were to read one of my post in the General Forum I am sure you'd find plenty of mistakes.

But of course I still make mistakes sometimes, regardless of what language I am using (I have a bad habit of skipping whole words).

Also, I did spot quite a few misstakes in your post...

 

[Monocles]

You're making the assumption that people who type poorly don't understand English well enough to do it properly, but one does not necessarily logically follow from the other. Some people (myself included), simply couldn't care less about using proper English. My opinion is that if my message was understood, then I did good enough. I use a modicum more effort when talking to strangers, but if I am talking to a friend I have no qualms typing like "u r dum, let's get sum foodz" (if for no reason other than I think the idea that the smart kid types like a 7 year old absolutely hilarious). I know proper English quite well (English major friends ask me to edit their papers on occasion!), but I choose not to use it for my own amusement.

 

[Integral]

ok, let me first say this is a genuine question that is not meant to offend anyone. i notice that a lot of you posters who excel in math and sciences and all of that hard stuff, make numerous grammar mistakes. the poster who has frylock as his avatar regularly uses the word you're when your is most appropriate. i am not a grammar Nazi by any means. this is especially true, since although i am exemplary at english i can't type for ****. however i can't fathom how someone can be so brilliant at physics, and not understand basic english concepts. unless the posters on this board are not native to the english language, which in that case kudos for being decent at it, as your second language.

ee cummings!

Welcome to the forums.

I find it amusing that someone who is finding fault with the usage of English, cannot write correct English!

 

[avant-garde]

I was going to add to this debate, but apparently now it would be like beating a dead horse.

 

[DaveC426913]

ee commings!

Welcome to the forums.

I find it amusing that someone who is finding fault with the usage of English, cannot write correct English!

He's got an excellent point. Why are you throwing stones from a glass house? (Not to put too fine a point on it but, technically, your post actually violates forum guidelines requiring attention to punctuation.)

 

[sportsstar469]

He's got an excellent point. Why are you throwing stones from a glass house? (Not to put too fine a point on it but, technically, your post actually violates forum guidelines requiring attention to punctuation.)

well i did say i wasnt one to talk since i don't type as fluently as i should.

 

[boboYO]

if you go on any other online forum you will find that the standard of english is lower.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Yes. I can't play the sports too or talk at women because I'm too much of a math type. Now I have to go, go get back to my equations now.

 

[DaveC426913]

well i did say i wasnt one to talk since i don't type as fluently as i should.

mhm. You claim to be examplary at English yet don't seem to be able to adhere to the same "basic English concepts" that you expect of others.

It sounds like you're just trying to start a kerfuffle.

I'm callin' troll.

 

[sportsstar469]

mhm. You claim to be examplary at English yet don't seem to be able to adhere to the same "basic English concepts" that you expect of others.

It sounds like you're just trying to start a kerfuffle.

I'm callin' troll.

how am i troll? i asked a simple question. relax... just because the question can be viewed of as less than flattering you call troll, and insult me. there's a difference between not grasping the english language and not typing properly.

you can call troll? if that makes you feel better about yourself...but I am just a guy who is fascinated by people who excel in math and science, and that's why i visit forums like these.

also, math and english use opposite sides of the brain, so it is a perfectly legitimate question.

 

[MissSilvy]

also, math and english use opposite sides of the brain, so it is a perfectly legitimate question.

Do you actually know what you're talking about or do you just hear diluted, second-hand versions of theories and try to pass them off as fact? What, is one half of my brain going to grow to monster proportions as the other atrophies because I chose to specialize in physics over philosophy? Are you aware the the theory you're championing is outdated and regarded as far too simplistic to have much meaning at all? Probably not.

'Math and science types' as well as 'English types' both have had the same education through the end of high school, generally. This is usually some mix of science, math, literature, foreign languages, and what have you. So coming out of high school, both theoretically have exactly the same skills in English. Because this is the above the level of English that most people speak and communicate with on a normal basis, how can someone who specialized later on be poor at English? Unless you think their English skills fell out of their ears because of the dearth of equations and numbers crammed into their heads.

Furthermore, intelligence is not a zero-sum game. Because someone's good at English doesn't make them poor at math, any more than someone good at chemistry naturally sucks at painting. It's a bad question and a bit insulting, asking generally educated people if they suck at communicating in their native language. I don't think this young man is a troll, perhaps just a bit naive. At any rate, I'm off. Toodles!

 

[DaveC426913]

how am i troll? i asked a simple question. relax... just because the question can be viewed of as less than flattering you call troll, and insult me. there's a difference between not grasping the english language and not typing properly.

you can call troll? if that makes you feel better about yourself...but I am just a guy who is fascinated by people who excel in math and science, and that's why i visit forums like these.

also, math and english use opposite sides of the brain, so it is a perfectly legitimate question.

It has nothing to do with insults. You are trying to hold other people to a higher standard than you hold yourself. That doesn't make sense. Especially since you've labelled the standard "basic English concepts".

 

[lisab]

ok, let me first say this is a genuine question that is not meant to offend anyone. i notice that a lot of you posters who excel in math and sciences and all of that hard stuff, make numerous grammar mistakes. the poster who has frylock as his avatar regularly uses the word you're when your is most appropriate. i am not a grammar Nazi by any means. this is especially true, since although i am exemplary at english i can't type for ****. however i can't fathom how someone can be so brilliant at physics, and not understand basic english concepts. unless the posters on this board are not native to the english language, which in that case kudos for being decent at it, as your second language.

Hi sportstar...let me tell something I experienced that is related to this.

When I was a little kid, my strength was in words...I read early, and I had an impressive vocabulary at an early age.

Yet I always liked science, even though I fought with the math. When I was in college, I studied chemistry and physics, but I really struggled...especially with physics. The homework just took so long!

Then I found a different way to think. While I was doing my homework, I would read the problem, in language of course. I would write the pertinent information, then switch into non-language thinking.

Basically I learned to think without words. Just math. It made getting through homework so fast, it was great!

But it came with a cost. My language skills went downhill so fast...especially spelling. And explaining how I solved a problem was difficult too. It was so frustrating...I knew exactly what I was trying to say, but it was as if there was no bridge between my thoughts and words.

I still struggle with these issues - spellcheck is wonderful .

 

[w3390]

You know, it's funny because I bet most of the people posting in this thread have given an extra spell check before posting than they would have normally.

 

[berkeman]

Just a quick Mentor note. Please avoid the troll accusations here -- I see none so far. Just a legitimate question and some responses, albeit with some ironic errors in the posts that want to emphasize how important good grammar and spell checking are.

(carefully checking my post multiple times for grammar, punctuation and spelling...)

 

[cristo]

if you go on any other online forum you will find that the standard of english is lower.

I would tend to agree with this. However, the main reason is probably that part of the PF rules demand that one structures ones' posts in a grammatically correct manner (note that that also includes capitalisation!):

In the interest of conveying ideas as clearly as possible, posts are required to show reasonable attention to written English communication standards. This includes the use of proper grammatical structure, punctuation, capitalization, and spelling. SMS messaging shorthand, such as using "u" for "you", is not acceptable.

 

[Choppy]

I think there's a difference between knowing and doing. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who "know" basic grammatical rules, but simply fail to observe them - largely out of bad habits.

The most unfortunate thing about this is that poor grammar dramatically reduces the efficiency and efficacy of communication. It takes longer for a reader to get through the writer's message, and the meaning can be skewed.

Personally, I find it offensive when people don't bother to type properly. It's just like someone attaching a little text signature at the bottom of a post that says, "You're not worth me taking the effort to do this properly." And for the record, I don't think this is a second language issue at all.

 

[MacLaddy]

I really don't have anything useful to add to this discussion, but I do need to mention that I cracked up when I read DaveC426913's signature...

Great visualization.

 

[sportsstar469]

Hi sportstar...let me tell something I experienced that is related to this.

When I was a little kid, my strength was in words...I read early, and I had an impressive vocabulary at an early age.

Yet I always liked science, even though I fought with the math. When I was in college, I studied chemistry and physics, but I really struggled...especially with physics. The homework just took so long!

Then I found a different way to think. While I was doing my homework, I would read the problem, in language of course. I would write the pertinent information, then switch into non-language thinking.

Basically I learned to think without words. Just math. It made getting through homework so fast, it was great!

But it came with a cost. My language skills went downhill so fast...especially spelling. And explaining how I solved a problem was difficult too. It was so frustrating...I knew exactly what I was trying to say, but it was as if there was no bridge between my thoughts and words.

I still struggle with these issues - spellcheck is wonderful .

interesting story. goes to show you that you could be naturally good at something, and not so good at something else, but through focusing on what youre weak at, you can build your weakness to far surpass your current strengths!

You know, it's funny because I bet most of the people posting in this thread have given an extra spell check before posting than they would have normally.

HAHAHAHA!

Just a quick Mentor note. Please avoid the troll accusations here -- I see none so far. Just a legitimate question and some responses, albeit with some ironic errors in the posts that want to emphasize how important good grammar and spell checking are.

(carefully checking my post multiple times for grammar, punctuation and spelling...)

yeah it was pretty ironic i suppose ;)

I would tend to agree with this. However, the main reason is probably that part of the PF rules demand that one structures ones' posts in a grammatically correct manner (note that that also includes capitalisation!):

yeah i wouldn't expect a forum on dirtbikes to have as high of a standard as an academic forum, regardless of whether it is science, math or the arts.

But the point of this thread has nothing to do with how people type online. i was just asking if some of you struggled more with grammar than physics, based on some of the common mistakes i found in some of your posts. someone conjure up the same question about me also after seeing some of my mistyped paragraphs as well

 

[Werg22]

I don't know where that stereotype comes from. I've always been good with languages.

 

[Mark44]

Also, I did spot quite a few misstakes in your post...

Like this one?

 

[Mark44]

Furthermore, intelligence is not a zero-sum game. Because someone's good at English doesn't make them poor at math, any more than someone good at chemistry naturally sucks at painting. It's a bad question and a bit insulting, asking generally educated people if they suck at communicating in their native language. I don't think this young man is a troll, perhaps just a bit naive.

If you stood outside the English department at any US university, I wager that you would find less than 10% of the students (and faculty) who could compute a simple integral or perform a simple kinematics calculation. John Allen Paulos published several books about 15 years ago, one of which was Innumeracy. His point was that there were many people who were generally acknowledged as intellectuals, but whose knowledge of mathematics didn't extend to anything more current than the 14th century, and whose knowledge of science was about the same.

On the other hand, a lot of people who are very well-versed in mathematics and the sciences are at least competent at writing in their native language. In addition, you'll find a fair number of musicians among mathematicians and scientists, despite music being considered a "right brain" activity.

 

[Bourbaki1123]

In high school I wanted to be an artist and then a musician. I excelled in both disciplines because I put in the requisite work. During senior year in high school I took up an interest in philosophy which is a very language intensive discipline.

Many people are quite surprised by my facility in the visual arts, despite the 'fact' of a right brain/left brain 'rift'. I often get the impression that people have developed the idea that somehow the two hemispheres are at odds and cannot work in a synergistic manner, which is absurd.

Mathematics should be, if anything, a testament to the flexibility of the human brain. The linguistic and visuo-spatial aspects of mathematics are inexorably intertwined and thus considering a problem in terms of both the visual and logical aspects in the area of mathematics you are considering gives far more depth of understanding and a great many invaluable tools with which to attack problems. Why do you think we have such a melding of subfields in mathematics; Algebraic topology, Model theoretic Analysis (non standard analysis) and Algebraic geometry ect. ? It is because mathematics is synergistic! You need both hemispheres in good working order to achieve the deepest insights!

 

[waht]

I've been diagnosed with dyslexia early in childhood and always have been deficient in the language department which has affected me significantly in college. The auto-spelling feature is godsend, without it I have hard time recognizing simple errors. There are things the auto-spell won't catch. I often omit crucial conjunctions, type "is" instead of "in" or will completely omit a word. When I proof read myself, I often miss omitted words as my mind fills the blank with a missing word - where there is none.

In contrast, algebraic topology is as easy as breathing (quoting Stallone) ...

 

[Sankaku]

I just want to emphasize the point that many of the people on this forum do not have English as a first language. To assume so is somewhat arrogant. I can only guess what your skills in Swedish, Russian or Japanese are like.

Furthermore, intelligence is not a zero-sum game. Because someone's good at English doesn't make them poor at math, any more than someone good at chemistry naturally sucks at painting. It's a bad question and a bit insulting, asking generally educated people if they suck at communicating in their native language. I don't think this young man is a troll, perhaps just a bit naive.

I agree. These stereotypes are harmful and should be stamped out with vigour.

 

[lisab]

I just want to emphasize the point that many of the people on this forum do not have English as a first language. To assume so is somewhat arrogant. I can only guess what your skills in Swedish, Russian or Japanese are like.


I agree. These stereotypes are harmful and should be stamped out with vigour.

Well I interpret the OP's question to be about whether STEM-oriented people struggle more with grammar than math...it doesn't have to be English grammar.

However, you do have a point that the errors in grammar he/she observes on this forum could be because English is a second (third-fourth-...?) language for many PFers.

 

[Evo]

English is a second language for a large number of our members. While some are better at English than a lot of members whose first language is English, many are struggling to learn and some patience and understanding is expected.

If you run across someone that is especially difficult to understand, you could just ask them if English is their first language.

 

[f95toli]

Like this one?

Indeed

 

[Moonbear]

how am i troll? i asked a simple question. relax... just because the question can be viewed of as less than flattering you call troll, and insult me. there's a difference between not grasping the english language and not typing properly.

There are more errors in your posts than just typos. One major error is the incorrect usage of capitalization. That shift key really isn't all that hard to find, is it? There are errors in placement of commas, placement of apostrophes, usage of prepositions, etc. As you should be realizing, many of us here consider proper usage of English to be quite important. In fact, if you cannot write proper English, you will struggle to be a successful scientist, since scientists spend a lot of their time writing.

By the way, what is your "type?" Your thread title seems to suggest that you consider "math and science types" to be something different from yourself. Hopefully, you're not an English major.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I have found that logic oriented people such as mathematicians and scientists tend to view language more as a static system of rules and values. So I would say that most scientists and mathematicians are probably far more conscious and critical of grammar and linguistic skills than others. This isn't restricted to scientists and mathematicians though. There are plenty of so-called "left brained" persons in other fields including english teachers who are greatly annoyed at any minor lapse in grammar or students who violate their favoured preference on such subjects as split infinitives.

There are of course many people who are comfortable with both logic and perceive language as organic rather than static. Obviously we can't treat people according to stereotypes though I would say that in general "scientists" and "mathematicians" are probably the opposite of the theory implied by the OP.

 

[Pythagorean]

s'long as yer makin' at yer point thoroughly, it don't matter if you follow every lil rule. Langauge aint learned so much as tis created.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I full agreements do with the OP. For years many now I been altering my style writing to conform with the low astonishly PF standards. Now but I feel liberatedly to write standarded English as it is spoked by me and everyone around me since childhood growing up. Thanks you to sportsstar469.

 

[sportsstar469]

If you stood outside the English department at any US university, I wager that you would find less than 10% of the students (and faculty) who could compute a simple integral or perform a simple kinematics calculation. John Allen Paulos published several books about 15 years ago, one of which was Innumeracy. His point was that there were many people who were generally acknowledged as intellectuals, but whose knowledge of mathematics didn't extend to anything more current than the 14th century, and whose knowledge of science was about the same.

On the other hand, a lot of people who are very well-versed in mathematics and the sciences are at least competent at writing in their native language. In addition, you'll find a fair number of musicians among mathematicians and scientists, despite music being considered a "right brain" activity.

maybe, but in all fairness, for professional purposes, english majors do not need above pre algebra if tghat to accomplish their daily tasks. i heard they were raising the math requirements for elementary school teachers as well, which i find ridiculous. the argument is that elementary school teachers should be competent enough to teach advanced math so they can teach basic math better. what's funny is my trig teacher makes basic addition mistakes, and she's taken classes far beyond calc..

 

[sportsstar469]

There are more errors in your posts than just typos. One major error is the incorrect usage of capitalization. That shift key really isn't all that hard to find, is it? There are errors in placement of commas, placement of apostrophes, usage of prepositions, etc. As you should be realizing, many of us here consider proper usage of English to be quite important. In fact, if you cannot write proper English, you will struggle to be a successful scientist, since scientists spend a lot of their time writing.

By the way, what is your "type?" Your thread title seems to suggest that you consider "math and science types" to be something different from yourself. Hopefully, you're not an English major.

im a science major hoping to go to med school./

 

[Chi Meson]

There are more errors in your posts than just typos. One major error is the incorrect usage of capitalization. That shift key really isn't all that hard to find, is it? There are errors in placement of commas, placement of apostrophes, usage of prepositions, etc. As you should be realizing, many of us here consider proper usage of English to be quite important. In fact, if you cannot write proper English, you will struggle to be a successful scientist, since scientists spend a lot of their time writing.

By the way, what is your "type?" Your thread title seems to suggest that you consider "math and science types" to be something different from yourself. Hopefully, you're not an English major.

Dang it Moonb, that was going to be MY post!

Sportsstar, you are NOT good at writing. Stop kidding yourself. And forget about the "left brain right brain" stuff. People do have areas where they are more talented, but being good at science does NOT preclude being good at other things. Writing is a discipline just as science is a discipline. Being good at something takes education and practice.

So you relax, drop the subject, and learn where capitalization, commas, apostrophes,and logic are supposed to fit into your posts.

 

[xxChrisxx]

how am i troll? i asked a simple question. relax... just because the question can be viewed of as less than flattering you call troll, and insult me. there's a difference between not grasping the english language and not typing properly.

Case in point.

Most people on this forum know the 'basic' english rules on the differences between similar sounding words. If they are writing papers you can be damn sure it's all Ship shape and Bristol fashion.Fact is, this is the internet. I regulally type things wrong, not because I don't know any better but purely becuase I just don't care so long as the point is effectively communicated. I type on auto pilot so get lots of errors.The fact that you made the very mistakes you were commenting on is highly ironic. It should also be pointed of that if someone as 'uber' at english as you claim to be, can make mistakes from typos, its safe to assume that everyone else does the same.

 

[sportsstar469]

Dang it Moonb, that was going to be MY post!

Sportsstar, you are NOT good at writing. Stop kidding yourself. And forget about the "left brain right brain" stuff. People do have areas where they are more talented, but being good at science does NOT preclude being good at other things. Writing is a discipline just as science is a discipline. Being good at something takes education and practice.

So you relax, drop the subject, and learn where capitalization, commas, apostrophes,and logic are supposed to fit into your posts.

Ive won school awards for my writing...who am i trying to kid.it was a simple ****ing question... I am not an english major anyway, so having good writing skills isn't that important. it's math skills that count, and i have none haha.

and just for the record, I've never believed that one can only be talented at one discipline, i just asked a question on people's personal ability. but no matter how good you are at both disciplines, you will always be dominant at both, and saying that's theory is wrong.

 

[sportsstar469]

Case in point.

Most people on this forum know the 'basic' english rules on the differences between similar sounding words. If they are writing papers you can be damn sure it's all Ship shape and Bristol fashion.


Fact is, this is the internet. I regulally type things wrong, not because I don't know any better but purely becuase I just don't care so long as the point is effectively communicated. I type on auto pilot so get lots of errors.


The fact that you made the very mistakes you were commenting on is highly ironic. It should also be pointed of that if someone as 'uber' at english as you claim to be, can make mistakes from typos, its safe to assume that everyone else does the same.

i didnt say I am an english god, i just said I am exemplary at english...

 

[cristo]

i didnt say I am an english god, i just said I am exemplary at english...

That's clearly not true, is it? I wouldn't like to see many people following you as a role model!

 

[ideasrule]

sportsstar: to counter the attacks on your English, why not type one post with proper punctuation and capitalization? I'd be shocked to death if you couldn't capitalize properly.

 

[sportsstar469]

That's clearly not true, is it? I wouldn't like to see many people following you as a role model!

Well, as someone who thrives in sciences, you should know the difference between a theory and a fact. Using clearly, would denote that you have put my english skills through the whole entire scientific method, and it is a clear fact that my english skills suck! Since that is not true, and you are speculating, my english competency based on some improperly capitalized posts on this site, your ideas are nothing but speculation and theory. it is for that reason that the word CLEARLY should be omitted from your post.
Mr. physicist.

its amazing how a simple question, can stir up so much animosity. You would think that members of the scientific community would thrive to divulge a myth, that scientists, and mathematicians are just one sided. Also that they would do this in a positive way, that would bring positive connotation to the science and math community, as opposed to negative backwash like is being done now.

when using the word exemplary to describe my english skills, i simply mean i am above average. i am no english god, nor do i wish to be one. i have a much greater interest in becoming proficient in the mathematics i will be taking. math and labs for science are my current weak points, and i have already aced the college english courses i needed to take.

 

[arildno]

Having worked, among other things, as a teacher, I can tell you that you are dead wrong:

IF a pupil is good at maths&physics, then that person is usually good in the language department as well.

The converse is not true at all.

This I can tell you from participating literally hundreds of grade settings for pupils at the end of the term; those I deem good at maths are most usually in the upper echelons in the Norwegian teacher's class, the English teacher's class, the French teacher's class etc.

But there are numerous students who struggle mightily with maths who make good grades in languages.

I'm sure Chi Meson has had similar experiences with his students.

 

[sportsstar469]

Having worked, among other things, as a teacher, I can tell you that you are dead wrong:

IF a pupil is good at maths&physics, then that person is usually good in the language department as well.

The converse is not true at all.

This I can tell you from participating literally hundreds of grade settings for pupils at the end of the term; those I deem good at maths are most usually in the upper echelons in the Norwegian teacher's class, the English teacher's class, the French teacher's class etc.

But there are numerous students who struggle mightily with maths who make good grades in languages.

no offense, but if you are so good at language, and reading comprehension, you would have seen that i am wrong on nothing. i actually said, that i don't believe in the fact that students can not excel at both. my original OP was a QUESTION on your opinions on this. Never once did i say anyone on this site was not good at english. I had just asked if this was a trend due, to a few posts i found from some members on this site. (i pointed out frylocks you're s for instance.)

to tell you the truth, I've always had the mentality, that a math professor, could learn an english professor's job much better than the english professor could learn the math's job. if the english professor could learn the math's job in the slightest bit. this I am not to sure about to be quite honest./

 

[waht]

Can a mathematician write another Hamlet?

 

[Pinu7]

Can a mathematician write another Hamlet?

It would be in a definition-theorem-proof format.