Are differential angles vectors?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on whether differential angles should be classified as vectors or scalars, particularly in the context of angular velocity and infinitesimal rotations. Participants explore the definitions and implications of these classifications within theoretical and mathematical frameworks.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether differential angles are vectors or scalars, suggesting that angles might only gain direction through multiplication by a versor.
  • One participant asserts that finite angular displacements do not behave like vectors due to the non-commutative nature of angle addition, while infinitesimal rotations can have directional properties.
  • Another participant argues that 'little angles' are not vectors, emphasizing that angles lack a reference frame, which is essential for vector classification.
  • A later reply introduces the concept of an infinitesimal rotation represented as an axial vector, providing mathematical expressions to support this view.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the classification of differential angles and angular velocity, with no consensus reached on whether they should be considered vectors or scalars.

Contextual Notes

Some statements rely on specific definitions of vectors and angles, and the discussion includes unresolved mathematical steps regarding the representation of rotations.

physics user1
Because on the book it is said that little angles are vectors but my question is:
Are they vectors at all or they are scalar and we assign them a direction by multiplying them by a versor? The same for angular velocity, is it a vector at all or we made it a vector for making the right hand rule work?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
A scalar has magnitude only, such as temperatures at different points in a room.

A vector has not only magnitude but direction, say the flow of water during the draining of a bath tub.

So if I want to give you directions from you to me, saying I am five miles away [magnitude] is not enough; I need to tell you 'fives miles away to the west' , for example, using a compass as the scale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_vector
 
Cozma Alex said:
Because on the book it is said that little angles are vectors but my question is:
Are they vectors at all or they are scalar and we assign them a direction by multiplying them by a versor? The same for angular velocity, is it a vector at all or we made it a vector for making the right hand rule work?
finite angular displacements are not vectors as they do not obey the the rule that A + B = B+ A ,
but in infinitesimal rotations the displacements can have a direction along the axis of rotations - clockwise/anticlockwise rotation can have two directions
and the time rate of change of angles do provide a vector called angular velocity- no doubt the rotations in general can have three components like the normal vectors or generalized rotations...
 
Cozma Alex said:
it is said that little angles are vectors

unlikely. best to give actual quotes so we know what your reference is.

'Little angles' are angles, not vectors, right? For one thing an angle is usually not referenced to a coordinate frame of reference, like a graph plot. Vectors have direction because they have a specific direction with respect to a frame.
 
I don't know, what you mean by "little vectors", but an infinitesimal rotation can be written in terms of an axial vector ##\delta \vec{\varphi}##:
$$\delta \vec{V}=\delta \vec{\varphi} \times \vec{V}.$$
To see this look at a rotation around an axis ##\vec{n}## (right-hand rule!) with an angle ##\phi##. If you take the ##z## axis of a Cartesian righthanded coordinate system then it's described by the matrix
$$\hat{D}=\hat{D}_{\vec{n}}(\varphi)=\begin{pmatrix} \cos \varphi & -\sin \varphi &0 \\
\sin \varphi & \cos \varphi & 0 \\
0 & 0 & 1
\end{pmatrix},$$
i.e.,
$$\hat{D} \vec{V}=V_z \vec{e}_z + \cos \varphi (V_x \vec{e}_x + V_y \vec{e}_y)+\sin \varphi (-V_y \vec{e}_x+V_x \vec{e}_y).$$
On the other hand we have
$$\vec{e}_z \times \vec{V}=\vec{n} \times \vec{V}=-V_y \vec{e}_x+ V_x \vec{e}_y, \quad \vec{n} \times (\vec{n} \times \vec{V}) = -V_x \vec{e}_x-V_y \vec{e}_y,$$
from which we find
$$\hat{D} \vec{V}=\vec{n} (\vec{n} \cdot \vec{V})-\cos \varphi \vec{n} \times (\vec{n} \times \vec{V}) + \sin \varphi \vec{n} \times \vec{V}.$$
For a small angle ##\delta \varphi## this implies
$$\hat{D} \vec{V}=\vec{n} (\vec{n} \cdot \vec{V}) - \vec{n} \times (\vec{n} \times \vec{V}) +\delta \varphi \vec{n} \times \vec{V} + \mathcal{O}(\delta \varphi^2).$$
Now we have
$$\vec{n} \times (\vec{n} \times \vec{V}) =\vec{n} (\vec{n} \cdot \vec{V})-\vec{V} (\vec{n} \cdot \vec{n}) = \vec{n} (\vec{n} \cdot \vec{V})-\vec{V}$$
and thus finally
$$\hat{D} \vec{V}=\vec{V} +\delta \varphi \vec{n} \times \vec{V} + \mathcal{O}(\delta \varphi^2).$$
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
986
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • · Replies 241 ·
9
Replies
241
Views
14K