Are guys growing up fast enough? Should they?

[Greg Bernhardt]

There is a fantastic article at WSJ that explores the phenomena where men are generally delaying stereotypical "man" duties and attitude for later in life. Men who won't commit, enjoy playing xbox into the wee hours and have week old pizza on the counter. I would certainly admit I am closer to that description than the classic male portrayal of the first half of the 20th century.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704409004576146321725889448.html

I think she nailed the article, but I'm not convinced it's a bad thing. We're definitely seeing people wait to get married and have children. I am in that group and love it! But I can see how it is creating problems when women still have that clock. I know first hand from several lady friends that there is that pressure and it ends up making them husband hunt in their late twenties.

 

[FlexGunship]

Hah ha! That's funny. I'm the opposite. I've been trying to settle down since I was 23 (I'm 25 now). I bought a home, and I have a steady career. I've been learning to build and fix things, and I just want to get an early start on the rest of my life.

 

[lisab]

One passage near the end I found especially interesting:

What explains this puerile shallowness? I see it as an expression of our cultural uncertainty about the social role of men. It's been an almost universal rule of civilization that girls became women simply by reaching physical maturity, but boys had to pass a test. They needed to demonstrate courage, physical prowess or mastery of the necessary skills. The goal was to prove their competence as protectors and providers. Today, however, with women moving ahead in our advanced economy, husbands and fathers are now optional, and the qualities of character men once needed to play their roles—fortitude, stoicism, courage, fidelity—are obsolete, even a little embarrassing.

I had a discussion the other day with a friend who thought that modern life was slowly causing men to go insane...it's too easy.

 

[Evo]

I was 29 and 32 when I had my children. My girls are 23 and 26 and I can't even imagine either of them settling down to have children for the next 10 years, if ever. They don't seem to want children, which is fine with me. I didn't want children and I don't want grand children.

 

[rootX]

I had to pull birthday calculator once again to find my age, I just reached 23 (I am 23 years, 24 days old).

I am quite uncertain about my future. I don't know what/where I will be next year and the year after. I have no plans for future when it comes to my life.

 

[Physics-Learner]

i think that one thing that is happening is that we are not as brainwashed into having a certain type of existence, as we once were.

we are becoming aware that we don't have to get married by 21, and start having kids, etc.

this gives us more freedom, but it also gives us less stability, in that our lives are not as cookie cutter as they once were.

which means we end up working harder to try to find a direction to take.

 

[lisab]

i think that one thing that is happening is that we are not as brainwashed into having a certain type of existence, as we once were.

we are becoming aware that we don't have to get married by 21, and start having kids, etc.

this gives us more freedom, but it also gives us less stability, in that our lives are not as cookie cutter as they once were.

which means we end up working harder to try to find a direction to take.

Good points. Funny thing about freedom...having a *lot* of choices (like we do) doesn't always make a person happier.

 

[Physics-Learner]

no, it doesnt, does it ?

i think freedom is a good thing, but i also think that we got too much of it too quickly, such that we have not yet adapted to it.

but that could be said for a lot of things, in that human beings tend to need time to make changes.

when i was younger, i was a type a personality, with all sorts of goals in mind. the typical kinds of graduating from school, going to college, getting a degree, getting a job, buying a house, etc.

well i did all that stuff at an earlier age than average. and i held off having a family, until (quite accidentally) i realized i didnt have to have a family.

now i like peace and quiet and stability and uncomplications. and on the other hand, i am affectionate and like someone to hug and hold.

those 2 lifestyles don't exist together - LOL.

so i have absolutely no goal, and no longer have the certainty of god and heaven to cling to.

and while i am not exactly happy about it, i am coming to terms with it, and just trying to let things happen as they happen.

 

[apeiron]

which means we end up working harder to try to find a direction to take.

Interesting discussion. Modern life rewards people who take an entreprenurial approach to life - having ideas, taking risks, being skilled at networking and attracting a following. It is being said that the future of work is the mini-preneur. A portfolio approach where people have a number of losely connected jobs, contract work, small ventures. And a lot of it can arise out of hobbies and personal interests. Also more a continuous education and self-education approach. So very different.

The downside is that for most, the entreprenurial results will be a small scale success - a career-let (or portfolio of them), that could be mistaken for dabbling, but is just the small tail phenomenon. In an openly expanding economic system, success becomes distributed according to a powerlaw (and so the vast majority of those "successfully being entrepreneurs" are down at the tail end of the distribution). But this is cool as the lifestyle is still fun and earns enough to get by.

Of course, this does not fit the traditional male role stereotype. Or so people might say. But then again, think medieval or renaissance towns, or more ancient trading cities like Miletes. There might be something of the same homespun, find your own niche, create your own trade/craft feel to it. Well, not to stretch the analogy, but the idea of "male" does seem different if you think about silversmiths, weavers, etc.

See this list of 200 essential trades in a Victorian town and consider how perhaps some of this is about a transition in the world of work from the 20th century mass production model to a 21st internet driven entreprenurial craft economy (perhaps).

http://transitionculture.org/2009/0...required-to-make-a-victorian-town-functional/

 

[rootX]

i think that one thing that is happening is that we are not as brainwashed into having a certain type of existence, as we once were.

we are becoming aware that we don't have to get married by 21, and start having kids, etc.

this gives us more freedom, but it also gives us less stability, in that our lives are not as cookie cutter as they once were.

which means we end up working harder to try to find a direction to take.

I don't work to take a direction, opportunities come by, I either take them or discard them. It's quite simple.

 

[lisab]

I don't work to take a direction, opportunities come by, I either take them or discard them. It's quite simple.

But what if you have dozens (or more) opportunities facing you all at the same time? It can be overwhelming.

 

[rootX]

But what if you have dozens (or more) opportunities facing you all at the same time? It can be overwhelming.

I have been in those times and I use my instincts to make decisions. I believe more in doing best in what you choose than making a best choice.

 

[lisab]

I have been in those times and I use my instincts to make decisions. I believe more in doing best in what you choose than making a best choice.

That's good to be comfortable with being decisive. The important thing is to not dwell on the choices you didn't make. But, in my experience, that gets a lot harder with age .

 

[Pinu7]

That was perhaps the longest article I have ever read which contained absolutely no substance. The Wall Street Journal outdone themselves.

 

[chiro]

I find nowadays that people want to "live their life". When I say this I mean that people want to do things like travel, do specific hobbies, start businesses, get a PhD and so on and that they would rather defer the responsibility of being a father and putting their resources purely into their family.

I'm the same and I don't blame other people who share these views. There is just so much out there to experience in my mind, and quite frankly I want to take advantage of what we have in the 21st century and not be bogged down with worrying about a family.

I think another thing apart from the above is that it is a lot more expensive to have a family nowadays and I am assuming that people that want to have children and have the best opportunities wait until the right time so that their children do get the best options in the parents view.

Problem is that every generation grows up for the most part very comfortably and they generally want to party for just a little bit longer having the good life.

 

[rootX]

That's good to be comfortable with being decisive. The important thing is to not dwell on the choices you didn't make. But, in my experience, that gets a lot harder with age .

Yep older we get, harder it gets to undo our decisions.

But, I think life can be very hard for people who spend too much energy in coming up with a best decision. I know (young and old) people who literally get paralyzed by uncertainty and freedom. Most of the times, they end up in circles.

 

[Physics-Learner]

a very interesting development in myself has caused me to wonder a lot.

and this thread seems to be proof that others are in that same boat.

and that is that we have all been talking about ourselves in terms of "what we do" or "what we accomplish".

and the thing that has been going on in my mind for the past 5 years or so, is that perhaps what i am experiencing is a journey of what we should be doing.

learning to understand ourselves at a more basic, but deeper level. not as what we do, but who we are ? and in order to do so, we need to remove the cloak of goals and what we do.

if i ever figure it out, i will let you know - LOL.

 

[DanP]

I had a discussion the other day with a friend who thought that modern life was slowly causing men to go insane...it's too easy.

And perhaps she is right, at least partially. We live in a world where the more feminist magazines encourage men to get in such with their sensible feminine sides (yeah right, like a man has any feminine side whatsoever), where male kids engaging in rough and tumble play are labeled as violent and problem kids, where a male trowing a punch is considered a psychopath, where the smallest bruise on a kid is a catastrophe and where physical activity is frowned upon by legions of fat slobs.

 

[alt]

And perhaps she is right, at least partially. We live in a world where the more feminist magazines encourage men to get in such with their sensible feminine sides (yeah right, like a man has any feminine side whatsoever), where male kids engaging in rough and tumble play are labeled as violent and problem kids, where a male trowing a punch is considered a psychopath, where the smallest bruise on a kid is a catastrophe and where physical activity is frowned upon by legions of fat slobs.

Ah, So !

And where we employ labor saving devices (cars, etc) to go to labor inducing devices (gyms).

The world has gone mad, in this sense. Maybe it's natures way of sorting out the gene pool !

 

[DanP]

I can't stop thinking what Hymowitz lusts for in a man. This phrase:

American men have been struggling with finding an acceptable adult identity since at least the mid-19th century.

seems to indicate she misses the frontier man. the one who pushed the envelope of civilization into the west. Nathaniel "Natty" Bumppo like maybe.

“And Natty, what sort of white man is he? Why, he is a man with a gun. He is a killer, a slayer. Patient and gentle as he is, he is a slayer. Self-effacing, self-forgetting, still he is a killer. . . All the other stuff, the love, the democracy, the floundering into lust, is a sort of by-play. The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted.”

— D. H. Lawrence, Studies in Classic American Literature (1923)

Does she wants him back ? Do you girls want him back or would rather settle for one of the many incarnations of Charlie Sheen ? Would you rather have me play X-box or own a gun and disperse my energy at shooting practice ? Waste time in bars and drinks or taking a combat sport to eliminate the surplus of energy? Come home then insist that our 7 years old should come with me next time, start some some jiu-jitsu, learn how to fight. Or you would simply want me with no gun, no x-box, no drinks, just an elegant two legged reproductive machine which brings money at home ? The melted domesticated animal or the soul which never yet melted, with all the advantages and the tones of disadvantages it brings in your life ?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Does she wants him back ? Do you girls want him back or would rather settle for one of the many incarnations of Charlie Sheen ?

Charlie is slowly killing both himself and his career :D

 

[DanP]

Charlie is slowly killing both himself and his career :D

He does, but still I find him one of the best comedians. He did a great job in "Two and a half men". A role which fit him like a glove :P

Anyway, women should get it. It's either my gun, either my X-box. So decide if you want me with the Xbor or with the gun. Or next Ill get asked for my "balls" as well. Men need more things than simply getting married and raising kids. And surely women need more as well, but I can't possibly speak for them.

 

[lisab]

He does, but still I find him one of the best comedians. He did a great job in "Two and a half men". A role which fit him like a glove :P

Anyway, women should get it. It's either my gun, either my X-box. So decide if you want me with the Xbor or with the gun. Or next Ill get asked for my "balls" as well. Men need more things than simply getting married and raising kids. And surely women need more as well, but I can't possibly speak for them.

But why don't men who need this just do it on their own? Why do they need women's approval - are they in need of a mommy to tell them what their lifestyle should be?

And btw, I think a lot of men would be much happier if they took your advice. I think a lot of women would be, too.

 

[Norman]

I had to laugh out loud a little when I read this article. When I met my wife, I was singing (growling) in a punk band, living in a house with my band that was little more than a tenement house, working 3 jobs and going to college. Guess what, when we weren't at the bar next door, we were playing playstation and drinking beer... I was very rough around the edges. So, I was very much everything this article was about.

Guess what, I still play some Xbox. I have fun doing, sometimes it is frustrating. But there is nothing like beating frustration with a perfect headshot in a video game. Does it annoy my wife about the video games? Sometimes, probably. She understands that she doesn't get it. Just like I understand that I don't get the whole idea about having 10 different purses. And why she just needs that new one in that great purple color. I never will. It is fine.

So what, I say. Why are these women so keen on settling down at this age? Is it a biological issue? I think the more likely story is social pressure. Some of these guys who are stuck in this new 20-something never-never land are going to grow up and some of them will do it soon. So what if they play Xbox.

Unless they care more about Xbox than the girl. And they won't is my guess. 20-something guys also want sex. A lot. Heterosexual men require women for that. Sex will win out over Xbox. Trust me on this one. My thoughts are that women just need to leverage sex. It is a good card to hold. Right or wrong, I think it is reality.

I don't know much about this whole notion of a "hook up" scene. So I cannot comment on that part.

Another solution for women facing this issue - date and possibly marry older men. Assuming older = the traits they want.

 

[DanP]

But why don't men who need this just do it on their own? Why do they need women's approval - are they in need of a mommy to tell them what their lifestyle should be?

I think that most don't, and this is what frustrates some women. But I also think that it should not.

I think both men or woman should forget about strong archetypal description of sexes. Id say, be careful what you wish for. If you are dreaming the strong archetype of a men or a women, you'd should rather be prepared for what you are getting. Ppl of both sexes of this category are generally hard to handle in today's climate. They are difficult and demanding partners. Maybe not the best idea to get together with someone like this if you are not the same.

Id say, women don't need to complain about ppl playing X-box. If it annoys you, don't date him, find someone who works for you. I wouldn't consider some women as possible partners for me for reasons which others might find idiotic. But who cares. They are my reasons, and I don't get into a relationship to make a 3rd party happy. I get into a relationship to make myself happy and fulfilled in the first place, because it's the only state in which I can make my partner feel fulfilled. If I'm happy with her, Ill go to hell and back to make her happy or satisfy her whims. It might sound very egoistical, but its not. And I was always willing to negotiate some of our behaviors in the relationship. Take some, give some you know...

So it all boils down to the social exchange in the end. What you have to give and what you expect in exchange. If a women wants to settle down in her 20s, there are still enough more than willing to make the step.

In the end I still think men would be better off without X-boxes and computer games. Id say Himowitz is right with this. And I also think that parts of our society are pretty much idiotic, but as opposed to Himowitz i think is damaging to humans in general, not only to men. Women get the short stick also from this business too, not only men. Girls may not have X-boxes, but you get Oprah, series after series at TV and so on. And idling both at Xbox or at Oprah still makes you fat :P And no, its not more intelligent to waste time at Oprah than at Xbox. Still wasted time.

 

[Physics-Learner]

gosh - the immaturity of the species. no wonder people have such problems in relationships. they have much to learn.

 

[Zryn]

In the end I still think men would be better off without X-boxes and computer games.

Out of curiosity, what would you suggest in their place for the average 9-5er with 4hrs +/- 2hrs each evening (assuming 1 hour of daylight on average and a need to relax/unwind)?

 

[DanP]

Out of curiosity, what would you suggest in their place for the average 9-5er with 4hrs +/- 2hrs each evening (assuming 1 hour of daylight on average and a need to relax/unwind)?

2 things. Sports and some time spent with your SO when you both feel like it. Simple things. Games, walks , an evening with other friends, but in person , not online, and touching :P A lot of touching. (with your SO, not with all friends ). So what if you are 50 ? Walk hand in hand, she is still your woman.

About sports. There is nothing which up-regulates the human body like physical effort. You slowly become stronger, faster, more coordinated. Your head gets clearer, and IMO there is nothing (except medication) which keeps depression and anxiety at bay better. You cardio-vascular system is less exposed to decay. Look at the picture below. At the diameter of the arteries of those men. Which one do you want to be ?

 

[Dembadon]

Out of curiosity, what would you suggest in their place for the average 9-5er with 4hrs +/- 2hrs each evening (assuming 1 hour of daylight on average and a need to relax/unwind)?

2 things. Sports and some time spent with your SO when you both feel like it. Simple things. Games, walks , an evening with other friends, but in person , not online, and touching :P A lot of touching. (with your SO, not with all friends ). So what if you are 50 ? Walk hand in hand, she is still your woman.

About sports. There is nothing which up-regulates the human body like physical effort. You slowly become stronger, faster, more coordinated. Your head gets clearer, and IMO there is nothing (except medication) which keeps depression and anxiety at bay better. You cardio-vascular system is less exposed to decay. Look at the picture below. At the diameter of the arteries of those men. Which one do you want to be ?

Agree 100%. Excellent advice, Dan.

I'd add that if one isn't into sports, then some amount of exercise is better than nothing. Join the local gym, learn to climb, cycle, run, etc.

 

[Norman]

Agree 100%. Excellent advice, Dan.

I'd add that if one isn't into sports, then some amount of exercise is better than nothing. Join the local gym, learn to climb, cycle, run, etc.

If I may, I think the overwhelming take away from Dan and Don is that balance in a person's life is important. Everyone needs some exercise. For some, that may be sports of some kind. For others, that maybe something different-working out, hitting a heavy bag, hanging drywall, etc.

When it comes down to it, having any sort of hobby in addition to xbox or gaming is important to your overall well-being. The idea should be to satisfy your physical, mental, social and spiritual (e.g. religious) needs. This will make all your relationships better in my opinion. That doesn't mean you can't blow an hour on xbox on the weekend if you want.

 

[mcknia07]

I think it's true that guys just are not that into a serious relationship/marriage at an early age. Guys are all about them and don't want a girl to get in the way of any of the plans. Maybe I'm just young and want something more that can't be rushed along, I know, but gosh guys... Give us what we want too lol.

 

[Physics-Learner]

hi mcknia07,

the main problem is that males and females get vastly different brainwashing during our first stages of life, thereby creating vastly different desires.

 

[DanP]

hi mcknia07,

the main problem is that males and females get vastly different brainwashing during our first stages of life, thereby creating vastly different desires.

That's bull. Nobody is brainwashed.

 

[Physics-Learner]

sometimes it can be hard to see the forest because of the trees.

 

[Norman]

That's bull. Nobody is brainwashed.

I assume he means socialized?

 

[DanP]

I assume he means socialized?

Probably he means that, but he cannot see the forest because of the trees.

 

[Andre]

That's bull. Nobody is brainwashed.

No doubt, however there may be some hard wiring differences between male and female mammals in general?

Maybe that the male genes command their bodies to go and multiply as much as possible- quantity, whereas the female genes tell their bodies to be very careful, whose child to carry because it is a heavy investment - pregnancy - nursing - raising. in a word, quality

So the male mammals have to convince females about that quality by superior fighting, rutting, tribe wars, footbal, gaming.

 

[DanP]

No doubt, however there may be some hard wiring differences between male and female mammals in general?

Maybe that the male genes command their bodies to go and multiply as much as possible- quantity, whereas the female genes tell their bodies to be very careful, whose child to carry because it is a heavy investment - pregnancy - nursing - raising. in a word, quality

So the male mammals have to convince females about that quality by superior fighting, rutting, tribe wars, footbal, gaming.

Sure they are. A lot of differences in behavior, some arising from biology, some arising from social factors.

But the fact is, the very "I", the human self, is largely a social construct. Anyone who claims that the building of the very core of a social being, the self, is brainwashing has serious issues understanding humans. Without it, we would be nothing. Less than a chimp.

 

[Andre]

Right, however, maybe it's the current decreasing demand for tribe wars and other forms of fighing that -assuming the conservation of testosterone levels- caused the swift to increasing gaming activities.

 

[DanP]

Right, however, maybe it's the current decreasing demand for tribe wars and other forms of fighing that -assuming the conservation of testosterone levels- caused the swift to increasing gaming activities.

It may originate in something like that. God knows. As Lisab said, life is too easy nowadays for most humans in the civilized world. Just look at decreases in average energy expenditure since 1800. Obesity trends are scary. Depression is on the raise. Diabetes and depression will soon be the most widespread afflictions in the rank of humans, if trends don't change. Yes, I think there might be some truth in this. For most, there are no more enemies to kill, no monsters to vanquish, you don't even need to chuck wood to make heat in your house.

You can consider yourself lucky if you get a a high stakes job, it may still allow you to play and manage risk in the real world. That's just about the only thing left. Or go entrepreneurial and pull your company up, that would be satisfactory as well. And let's not forget a career in politics.

 

[Andre]

Right, apart from that, there is more behind the decreasing demand for tribe wars, the disappearance of conscription following the end of the cold war.

The military reshaped "boys" in a way to become "men"; (Parenthesis included to put any strawman in perspective that one can invent about that statement).

The military tends to extend limits beyond belief, hardship, taking away barriers - I did not know I could do that - proudness ect. At least that's what it intended to do.

Personally, I think it also made men more susceptible to groupthink (we -the good guys- against them -the bad guys).

I doubt if the current reduced numbers of volunteers can do in society what conscript did some decades ago.

 

[Physics-Learner]

when one is young, he knows everything. after he has managed to cut down at least a few of the trees, he finds he knows very little. but he does manage to finally learn that he does not know everything.

a few words from jackson browne

Just do the steps that you've been shown
By everyone you've ever known
Until the dance becomes your very own
No matter how close to yours another's steps have grown
In the end there is one dance you'll do alone.

Into a dancer you have grown
From a seed somebody else has thrown
Go on ahead and throw
Some seeds of your own.

And somewhere between the time
You arrive and the time you go
May lie a reason you were alive
But you'll never know...

 

[DanP]

when one is young, he knows everything. after he has managed to cut down at least a few of the trees, he finds he knows very little. but he does manage to finally learn that he does not know everything.

You are missing the point completely. This thread is not about young ppl, is about changes in the structure of the society and behavior of both men and women.

 

[Physics-Learner]

i understand quite well. and i stick by my original comment to the girl to whom i replied.

 

[Zryn]

Doom speaker's more often than not are wrong no?

Perhaps the benefits of an Xboxerized youth is merely yet to become apparent (technologically aware youth, abstract thinkers and problem solvers, decline in the population Earth is required to support, survival of the fittest gene pool etc)

 

[DanP]

Right, apart from that, there is more behind the decreasing demand for tribe wars, the disappearance of conscription following the end of the cold war.

The military reshaped "boys" in a way to become "men"; (Parenthesis included to put any strawman in perspective that one can invent about that statement).

The military tends to extend limits beyond belief, hardship, taking away barriers - I did not know I could do that - proudness ect. At least that's what it intended to do.

Personally, I think it also made men more susceptible to groupthink (we -the good guys- against them -the bad guys).

I doubt if the current reduced numbers of volunteers can do in society what conscript did some decades ago.

This is an excellent perspective Andre and I will seriously think at it and it's implications in the next days.

 

[DanP]

Doom speaker's more often than not are wrong no?

Perhaps the benefits of an Xboxerized youth is merely yet to become apparent (technologically aware youth, abstract thinkers and problem solvers, decline in the population Earth is required to support, survival of the fittest gene pool etc)

Wishful thinking IMO. But evolution doesn't care about what I think. It'll just "judge" coldly.

 

[Zryn]

This does sound a bit like a 'back in my day' commentary to be honest. Back in the good old days before Xbox's, when men were men and joined the army and killed things, what were the leading health issues, and retrospectively, how were they solved?

Is it possible we're just glamorizing the 'good' aspects of pre-1990 (mainstream computing) because those good bits solve our current bad bits? What did the young men and women spend their spare time doing back then? Laying in the sun or smoking?

I'm not convinced all these things you're talking about (including the article and immaturity and obesity and depression and easy lifestyles and relationship problems) are 'bad', just different from what we're used to.

 

[DanP]

This does sound a bit like a 'back in my day' commentary to be honest. Back in the good old days before Xbox's, when men were men and joined the army and killed things, what were the leading health issues, and retrospectively, how were they solved?

Certainly not obesity:P And Andre's commentary is not a "back in my day" one, I guarantee you.

Is it possible we're just glamorizing the 'good' aspects of pre-1990 (mainstream computing) because those good bits solve our current bad bits? What did the young men and women spend their spare time doing back then? Laying in the sun or smoking?

For kids / teenagers:

Pre 1990 in our free time we played football , wrestled outside, biked. Weekends up in the mountains. Caving. hiking. In the winter we went skiing. We where full of bruises and our parents never thought we will somehow break. I could fight at school without anyone thinking I am the devil and the end of the world draws near. I've also red a lot in the evenings. Sometimes at a candle, for in communist times the power was cut every evening in some periods. We had hot water only once a week. Sometimes in the winter we didn't had any heating in apartments. It was cut off. But I was very seldom ill. We only had TV for 2h / evening, mainly ****, political propaganda. Nothing interesting to watch.

In hindsight, it was a good childhood. Yes, I would have preferred to live in a civilized country not in a communist garbagehole, but save the political situation I do not feel I was robbed of anything in my teenage years.

As for adults: What free time ? :P Free time was generally scarce. But ppl spent free moments as anyone does. Relaxing and socializing with friends.

I'm not convinced all these things you're talking about (including the article and immaturity and obesity and depression and easy lifestyles and relationship problems) are 'bad', just different from what we're used to.

The only thing I can say is that if you consider that obesity and depression are just "different", then we are as different as night and day. I can't possibly fathom how those things are not destructive to humans. Obesity is a deadly curse.

 

[Zryn]

I'm not convinced all these things you're talking about (including the article and immaturity and obesity and depression and easy lifestyles and relationship problems) are 'bad', just different from what we're used to.

---

The only thing I can say is that if you consider that obesity and depression are just "different", then we are as different as night and day. I can't possibly fathom how those things are not destructive to humans. Obesity is a deadly curse.

Oh yeah sure Obesity is a 'bad' thing, but what I mean is that Obesity just replaced something as the worst affliction of the current day and age. My point is that there is always social problems that get 'fixed' by being replaced with something else 'bad', just different from what we're used to. I'm sure there was something 'bad' but different in those days. Is this better or worse than what it was?