Schools Are universities reducing the number of Physics PhD students they take on?

[Ryker]

I heard that at my university only three of twelve condensed matter professors are taking on new PhD students this year, and was told that it's similar in other departments, as well (this latter claim is unverified). This came as a surprise, especially after hearing at the beginning of the previous year that the university's research budget has increased, so that it's now amongst the very top in Canada. So if we're having problems like these, how is it with other universities, be it in the US, Canada, Europe, Japan or Uzbekistan. Have other PF posters experienced similar things at their universities?

Any feedback would be appreciated, I'm just trying to gauge the situation and see whether this is a bad year in general, bad year at my university, a normal situation or perhaps a general declining trend.

 

[Llewlyn]

Have a look at these:
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110420/full/472276a.html
http://www.nature.com/news/specials/phdfuture/index.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v472/n7343/full/472259b.html

Ll.

 

[QuarkCharmer]

Depressing articles indeed.

I am interested to know the job growth compared to the number of granted PhD's in that same given time period. 1990-current. If the job-to-PhD ratio is about the same why would this be a problem at all?

 

[Ryker]

Have a look at these:
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110420/full/472276a.html
http://www.nature.com/news/specials/phdfuture/index.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v472/n7343/full/472259b.html

Ll.

Thanks for the links, I've already read all of those but one, but they don't really address the issue I'm asking about. I meant specifically for Physics PhD's and specifically for these last couple of years.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Any feedback would be appreciated, I'm just trying to gauge the situation and see whether this is a bad year in general, bad year at my university, a normal situation or perhaps a general declining trend.

My primary appointment is in a MS-granting physics department and I have a secondary appointment in a PhD-granting biology department (US state research university).

From my perspective, we are not seeing a decrease in the number of 'slots'- in fact, we are currently trying to increase graduate enrollment. The underlying issue is 'who pays tuition and stipend?'. The trend I have seen is that graduate tuition is increasingly paid by the Graduate school/Dean's office (that is, some centralized organization rather than individual departments), while the stipend is paid by the PI, through a research grant.

This sets up a situation where the Dean's office (for example) has authority over entering class sizes for the various departments. In theory, the class size is informed by the amount of research dollars generated by the different departments, since the costs of the entering students are then eventually passed to the particular department the student 'lives in'. The Dean also has a vested interest in making sure entering students can eventually reach the terminal degree by ensuring there are labs/advisors for students to enter.

Because graduate schools have over the past 20+ years become increasingly dependent on federal research grant dollars, as the competition for grant dollars has increased, schools may be compensating by restricting the number of entering students.

However, this effect could be smaller than an additional and unrelated factor- more students are trying to enter graduate school because the job market is so tight.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Individual universities attempt to throttle the number of students entering their programs to ensure that they don't have more students in the middle of their PhD's than they can support. This can mean lots of things from a changing department focus to lingering grad students.

I don't think you can tell anything from one point.

 

[Ryker]

Yeah, good point, and exactly the reason why I wanted to hear from other people, as well.

 

[twofish-quant]

Depressing articles indeed.

Overly depressing. IMHO. One thing that is interesting is that if you graph the number of Ph.D.'s admitted/graduated each year, since 1965 it's always been roughly between 1000-1500. There's nothing that I've heard that suggests that the admissions are outside that range.

I am interested to know the job growth compared to the number of granted PhD's in that same given time period. 1990-current. If the job-to-PhD ratio is about the same why would this be a problem at all?

see http://web.mit.edu/dikaiser/www/CWB.html

The problem is that the job/physics Ph.D. situation has been the same since the *1970's*. Honestly, I think the only thing that has changed since 1985 is that the internet makes it impossible for people to disappear, so that in 1990 you could publish job projections and not have a thousand people say "bogus" whereas in 2011, the internet won't let you do that.

 

[carlgrace]

Overly depressing. IMHO. ...
The problem is that the job/physics Ph.D. situation has been the same since the *1970's*. Honestly, I think the only thing that has changed since 1985 is that the internet makes it impossible for people to disappear, so that in 1990 you could publish job projections and not have a thousand people say "bogus" whereas in 2011, the internet won't let you do that.

I have to disagree pretty strongly here. The difference is the kinds of jobs available to Ph.Ds. Starting in the 1970s the trend has been for Ph.D.s to become extended cheap labor with multiple post-docs, fellowships, and non-tenure-track positions. Faculty appointments are getting fewer-and-farther in between. For example, the number of postdocs in Particle Physics that Princeton *alone* is hiring this year exceeds the number of tenure-track faculty positions for Particle Physics in the whole USA. So I believe there really is an issue here.

 

[Geezer]

For example, the number of postdocs in Particle Physics that Princeton *alone* is hiring this year exceeds the number of tenure-track faculty positions for Particle Physics in the whole USA. So I believe there really is an issue here.

I've read that, too. Depressing.

 

[Geezer]

Quoting from that first Nature article above:

The proportion of people with science PhDs who get tenured academic positions in the sciences has been dropping steadily and industry has not fully absorbed the slack...

Figures suggest that more doctorates are taking jobs that do not require a PhD. "It's a waste of resources," says Stephan. "We're spending a lot of money training these students and then they go out and get jobs that they're not well matched for."

 

[Vanadium 50]

But what makes you think things were different in the past? Apart from the rare spurts of growth (really only two - post-WW2 and post-Sputnik) it has always been difficult to get a faculty job.

The other thing to remember is back in the 60's and 70's, assistant professors were essentially postdocs. Postdoc duties, postdoc wages, and postdoc job security.

I understand why people think that entering the faculty market is difficult today. I don't understand why people think that entering the faculty market was easier 20 years ago.

 

[carlgrace]

But what makes you think things were different in the past? Apart from the rare spurts of growth (really only two - post-WW2 and post-Sputnik) it has always been difficult to get a faculty job.

The other thing to remember is back in the 60's and 70's, assistant professors were essentially postdocs. Postdoc duties, postdoc wages, and postdoc job security.

I understand why people think that entering the faculty market is difficult today. I don't understand why people think that entering the faculty market was easier 20 years ago.

That is still true of an assistant professor. The difference is new professors today are dealing with the postdoc duties, postdoc wages, and postdoc job security at 35 instead of at 28. I disagree somewhat with the part about "postdoc duties". New professors were expected to initiate new research programs (in general). That is rarely the case for postdocs today.

I agree with you that the faculty market wasn't any easier 20 years ago. However, I still maintain it *was* easier in the 1960s. The academic-industrial complex was in strong growth mode then. Today it is not (we are in agreement there). Easier doesn't mean easy, of course. But there are more really good candidates for each opening today than there were in the 1960s or 1970s, and that is a fact.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The 60's, especially the early 60's, were the post Sputnik period. One of the exceptions I mentioned. But holy smokes - it was 50 years ago. What I don't understand is the perception that somehow that is what's normal and we're somehow in the middle of a 50 year aberration.

What I also don't understand is how 25 years ago, it was understood that getting a faculty job after a PhD was the exception and not the rule, but somehow people seem surprised by that today.

I also suggest you take a look at assistant professor salaries today. They are much better than a postdoc's. State schools often publish their salaries online so you can see. (And remember to multiply by 11/9ths)

 

[carlgrace]

The 60's, especially the early 60's, were the post Sputnik period. One of the exceptions I mentioned. But holy smokes - it was 50 years ago. What I don't understand is the perception that somehow that is what's normal and we're somehow in the middle of a 50 year aberration.

What I also don't understand is how 25 years ago, it was understood that getting a faculty job after a PhD was the exception and not the rule, but somehow people seem surprised by that today.

I also suggest you take a look at assistant professor salaries today. They are much better than a postdoc's. State schools often publish their salaries online so you can see. (And remember to multiply by 11/9ths)

I don't disagree with you. The issue for me is that the whole academic system is constructed to manufacture more professors, and there isn't enough spaces for them. Not even close. I think you're misstating my position if you think I believe that the 1960s were normal. I think today is normal, but the message is not getting out to college students.

You're correct about assistant professor salaries. My point is people are just getting started on the faculty ladder when they were be pushing mid-career in most fields.

Sure, getting a faculty job was always the exception, but most people don't realize how much of an exception it really is.

 

[Geezer]

I heard that at my university only three of twelve condensed matter professors are taking on new PhD students this year, and was told that it's similar in other departments, as well (this latter claim is unverified). This came as a surprise, especially after hearing at the beginning of the previous year that the university's research budget has increased, so that it's now amongst the very top in Canada. So if we're having problems like these, how is it with other universities, be it in the US, Canada, Europe, Japan or Uzbekistan. Have other PF posters experienced similar things at their universities?

Any feedback would be appreciated, I'm just trying to gauge the situation and see whether this is a bad year in general, bad year at my university, a normal situation or perhaps a general declining trend.

Here's a quote from a Canadian material sciences professor (left as a comment for one of those Nature articles linked above):

The problem is not that there are too many PhD. The problem is that there are much less jobs outside academia, in North America specifically, that require a PhD degree. In the past many bright PhD went not to academia but to research divisions of big corporations, where they contributed to development of novel innovative products and made good science at the same time. In my area lots of fundamental work was done by people from places like IBM, RCA, etc. And where is RCA now?

Now corporations do not do R&D. They watch the bottom line and move production to China and other countries. Little wonder there is such a demand in China, the R&D jobs follow the production facilities. It makes little sense to keep an R&D department 10,000 miles from the production. So these jobs disappeared.

Now the new breakthrough research is supposedly being done in universities, by people like me (I am a mid-career prof in Canada, materials research). However, I am forced to work with graduate students and (very rarely) postdocs because I do not have sufficient funding. This is partially a Canadian problem where an average grant size is slightly over $30,000 per year. Well, most of us have more than one grant, so we survive, but there is no way we could create permanent scientist positions, there are neither sufficient funds nor indeed room in the university structure to accommodate such kinds of jobs. Our main granting agency in sciences and engineering in fact specifically forbids funding of a pdf position for more than two years from its funds (!). This lowers dramatically the productivity of my research. Having experienced stuff scientist positions available at the universities would enable me to increase the efficiency of my research (and investments into my group by the granting agencies). This would also solve, at least in part, the problem of having not enough academia jobs for all recent PhDs. Now I have to take new students because I need people to work on my projects, but as soon as I have trained them, I have to kick them out and start all over again, while they are hard pressed to find good jobs. I, or my colleagues, do need them, we would have taken them, and our research would benefit enormously, but we have no way to do so. We would also then take less graduate students thus reducing the glut of PhD graduates we have to produce to keep our funding and increasing the overall PhD level, which indeed becomes somewhat low in recent years.

There are a few professors in my Department who are somehow able to support stuff scientists, but only because they have long-term industrial funding. However, these are really exceptions. There have been comments on another thread about a professor who was doing the same and having hard time justifying her budgets for grant agencies. The university system in North America is not equipped for this. And this may be a bad thing because the current level of complexity of the cutting edge research requires more, not less qualified people to develop novel breakthrough technologies. So the fault is not with how we train PhDs, the fault is how we fail to use them properly.

 

[Geezer]

That is still true of an assistant professor. The difference is new professors today are dealing with the postdoc duties, postdoc wages, and postdoc job security at 35 instead of at 28. I disagree somewhat with the part about "postdoc duties". New professors were expected to initiate new research programs (in general). That is rarely the case for postdocs today.

True. At 28, I didn't have a kid; at 35 I will. At 28, I wasn't concerned about trying to buy a house; at 35, I'm frustrated that I have $60K to put towards the purchase of a house but that still doesn't come close to the 20% down payment we need to buy a place here in California. However, the option to leave California doesn't really exist: we'd have to find some other place where the two of us could both get decent--ideally, academic--jobs. My spouse has an non-tenure track academic job now, though the full salary comes from grants and not the university (though health insurance other benefits come from the university). And when academic jobs are so few and far between, you can't really be choosy. So, our family really is stuck here, unable to move forward as adults. Our rent is twice what our siblings pay as a mortgage for any of their nice houses (in other states, obviously).

Finally, in the 1950s, 1960s, and most of the 1970s, one income, even a post doc one, was sufficient to support a family; now it's not. I have plenty of post doc friends earning just $35-$40K/year as post doc; how do you support a family on that here in California?

I agree with you that the faculty market wasn't any easier 20 years ago. However, I still maintain it *was* easier in the 1960s. The academic-industrial complex was in strong growth mode then. Today it is not (we are in agreement there). Easier doesn't mean easy, of course. But there are more really good candidates for each opening today than there were in the 1960s or 1970s, and that is a fact.

Agreed. Before, you could join IBM, AT&T, or any other number of private labs; now most of those labs are gone.

 

[Andy Resnick]

This thread has drifted somewhat- that's fine, but it should be remarked that a (real or) perceived decrease in the number of PhD slots is (or should be) a different issue than the decrease in number of tenure-track slots.

The majority of PhDs are employed outside of academia and have been for quite some time. As twofish said (quite well)- to act as if we are in the middle of a 50-year old employment aberration, or that it's a surprise to anyone that obtaining a tenure-track faculty appointment is extremely difficult, reflects the poster's cluelessness.

 

[Jack21222]

I'm frustrated that I have $60K to put towards the purchase of a house but that still doesn't come close to the 20% down payment we need to buy a place here in California.

You can't find a house for less than $300,000 in California?

I don't know where in California you live, but I just did a search on realtor.com for Los Angeles, CA, price range 200k to 280k, and came up with 1128 hits.

San Francisco came up with 77 hits.

Sacramento came up with with 515 hits.

San Jose came up with 527 hits.

I'd imagine the areas further out from the big cities will be even cheaper. Whinging about how you only have 60k in the bank will probably have the opposite effect of what you intended. Sounds to me like you're living the good life.

 

[twofish-quant]

I have to disagree pretty strongly here. The difference is the kinds of jobs available to Ph.Ds. Starting in the 1970s the trend has been for Ph.D.s to become extended cheap labor with multiple post-docs, fellowships, and non-tenure-track positions. Faculty appointments are getting fewer-and-farther in between

She's dead Jim. She's been dead for forty years. Looking at the data, and this seriously surprised me when I actually looked at the data, I don't think it's harder for someone to get a faculty position today than in 1975.

What I don't know (and I would love someone to tell me) is what happened to the "typical Ph.D. in 1975".

For example, the number of postdocs in Particle Physics that Princeton *alone* is hiring this year exceeds the number of tenure-track faculty positions for Particle Physics in the whole USA.

And that's been true since 1970.

So I believe there really is an issue here.

Yes, I think there really is an issue, but I think it's mostly an expectations issue. One problem is that unless you fundamentally change the way physics Ph.D.'s are funded then increasing or decreasing the number of faculty positions doesn't change the outcome. If you triple the number of faculty, then you end up tripling the number of graduate students/post-docs and you end up with the Malthusian problem at a higher level.

 

[twofish-quant]

I don't disagree with you. The issue for me is that the whole academic system is constructed to manufacture more professors, and there isn't enough spaces for them.

So you have to push people out of academia and into the "real world."

I think today is normal, but the message is not getting out to college students.

I think that conversations like these are useful for getting the message out. However, the message might be too pessimistic. No one that I personally know with a physics Ph.D. is unemployed, and everyone has been able to get some decent job that puts them in the upper middle class. That's pretty good.

Sure, getting a faculty job was always the exception, but most people don't realize how much of an exception it really is.

Sure, but you have to also point out that there is a world outside of academia.

 

[twofish-quant]

However, the option to leave California doesn't really exist: we'd have to find some other place where the two of us could both get decent--ideally, academic--jobs.

There are decent jobs in Texas, Washington state, and New York. House prices in Texas are decent. House prices in Washington state are less insane. House prices in NYC are totally insane, but so are salaries.

And if you are really adventurous the are lots of jobs in Asia.

And when academic jobs are so few and far between, you can't really be choosy. So, our family really is stuck here, unable to move forward as adults.

This is the market telling you that you should get out of academia. One of the nice things about leaving academia is that suddenly a lot of hand cuffs get removed. Something that you really, really need ask yourself as why is academia so important that you are willing to make your life miserable to stay in it.

Most of the people that leave academia (including myself) are so relieved by it, that we wonder why we were so insane for trying to stay in the system.

Finally, in the 1950s, 1960s, and most of the 1970s, one income, even a post doc one, was sufficient to support a family; now it's not. I have plenty of post doc friends earning just $35-$40K/year as post doc; how do you support a family on that here in California?

You can't. That's why I'm glad that I went to school in Texas.

Agreed. Before, you could join IBM, AT&T, or any other number of private labs; now most of those labs are gone.

They aren't. They've just moved. As the US economy has moved from manufacturing to services and finance, basic research has also moved from manufacturing to services and finance. The 2011 equivalent of Bell Labs exists largely in the major investment banks.

 

[Ryker]

Finally, in the 1950s, 1960s, and most of the 1970s, one income, even a post doc one, was sufficient to support a family; now it's not. I have plenty of post doc friends earning just $35-$40K/year as post doc; how do you support a family on that here in California?

Isn't "supporting a family" a bit of an outdated notion, in the sense that you can't expect to find a lot of families with the traditional stay-at-home mums or dads? The figures you quoted are low for a position that requires a PhD in Physics, though, and I agree that perhaps they should be high enough to do what you suggest, that is, support a family on that income alone.

 

[jbunniii]

You can't find a house for less than $300,000 in California?

I don't know where in California you live, but I just did a search on realtor.com for Los Angeles, CA, price range 200k to 280k, and came up with 1128 hits.

San Francisco came up with 77 hits.

Sacramento came up with with 515 hits.

San Jose came up with 527 hits.

I'd imagine the areas further out from the big cities will be even cheaper. Whinging about how you only have 60k in the bank will probably have the opposite effect of what you intended. Sounds to me like you're living the good life.

I don't guess you've ever actually been to the neighborhoods in these cities where you could get a house for under $300k? If you want anything marginally livable, try doubling that, even after the price declines of the past few years. If you think $60k in the bank will get you very far housingwise in Silicon Valley or LA, you really do not know what you are talking about.

 

[ParticleGrl]

The figures you quoted are low for a position that requires a PhD in Physics, though, and I agree that perhaps they should be high enough to do what you suggest, that is, support a family on that income alone.

Those figures are average, at least in high energy.

 

[Ryker]

Those figures are average, at least in high energy.

I know, I was saying they are low looking from a general perspective on salaries.

 

[ParticleGrl]

What I also don't understand is how 25 years ago, it was understood that getting a faculty job after a PhD was the exception and not the rule, but somehow people seem surprised by that today.

Part of it might be a change in the way students are being advised? Certainly, none of the professor I talked to about the decision to go to grad school even mentioned the difficulty of finding work doing physics after the phd.

 

[Vanadium 50]

As twofish said (quite well)- to act as if we are in the middle of a 50-year old employment aberration...

Twofish? More like fiftyfish.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Part of it might be a change in the way students are being advised? Certainly, none of the professor I talked to about the decision to go to grad school even mentioned the difficulty of finding work doing physics after the phd.

Well, what would cause that change? Remember, we're moving farther away from the last big expansion.

If you don't mind, PM me with the name if your school; I might want to chat with some faculty I know about this.

Finally, did you really think a system where a professor cranks out 10 students, who each get jobs cranking out 10 students, and so on was sustainable? We weren't advised that this was a possibility, but my class would have laughed at any professor that tried to tell us that. In my cohort, the expectation was that we would go on to industry.

 

[twofish-quant]

I don't guess you've ever actually been to the neighborhoods in these cities where you could get a house for under $300k?

The big problem with places with very cheap houses is: cheap houses -> low tax base -> awful schools -> private schools.

 

[twofish-quant]

If you don't mind, PM me with the name if your school; I might want to chat with some faculty I know about this.

Should talk to the National Science Foundation

http://www.nsf.gov/nsb/documents/2003/nsb0369/nsb0369.pdf

The names of the people involved are on page iii

Quoting: The Federal Government and its agencies must step forward to ensure the adequacy of the US science and engineering workforce. All stakeholders must mobilize and initiate efforts that increase the number of US citizens pursuing science and engineering studies and careers.

Read page 21...

----

Although there has been considerable debate over the last decade about the overproduction of PhD scientists and engineers in certain fields, it is beyond dispute that society is – and will become even more – dependent on science and technology. Future progress and world leadership depend on a steady stream of scientific discoveries and developments that, in turn, depend on a cadre of individuals with a high level of scientific training and education.

(...)

A number of factors will contribute to growth in the need for US personnel with advanced S&E degrees in the next few decades. These factors include accelerating retirements,41 greater competition internationally for S&E talent, and national security concerns that may both affect access and attraction of foreign students and scholars to the United States and raise the demand for US citizens in national security-related areas.

---------

Also see...

http://www.aip.org/enews/fyi/2002/095.html

We can go back to the 1990's for more of this non-sense.

One HUGE problem with these sorts of studies is that no one on the board seems to be a post-doc.

In any event, the myth of a scientist shortage isn't this "rogue myth", it's something systemic that involves the NSF and AIP.

Finally, did you really think a system where a professor cranks out 10 students, who each get jobs cranking out 10 students, and so on was sustainable?

No, but if you asked the faculty about it you get two answers:

1) that there would be a large number of openings once the Sputnik generation retires, and

2) the market is tough, but good people can get jobs. Since you are talking to people that have been consistently at the top 10% of what they have been doing since kindergarten, this gets taken the wrong way.

We weren't advised that this was a possibility, but my class would have laughed at any professor that tried to tell us that. In my cohort, the expectation was that we would go on to industry.

My reaction to a lot of what I was told was "this is bull****" but I think I'm a bit more cynical than the average Ph.D. student. Even I was surprised that the shortage started in 1970. Until a few years ago, I assumed that it started in 1985.

"It's like finding your grandmother stealing your stereo. You're happy to get your stereo back, but it's sad to find out your grandmother is a thief." -- Michael Nesmith

 

[twofish-quant]

Also you can find links to everything at

http://www.phds.org/the-big-picture/scientist-shortages/

 

[ParticleGrl]

Well, what would cause that change? Remember, we're moving farther away from the last big expansion.

I honestly don't know, it was a totally open conjecture. I can say that my experience can't be that unique, most of my cohort in grad school expressed surprise at job prospects after grad school (usually sometime around second year as they started seeing older students finish up).

Finally, did you really think a system where a professor cranks out 10 students, who each get jobs cranking out 10 students, and so on was sustainable?

Of course not- but a system where a professor cranks out 8 students, of which 1 gets that research university position everyone wants, 3 or 4 go to liberal arts colleges, 1 or 2 into national labs, and another 2 or 3 into industry seemed somewhat steady-state.

One terrible assumption I made was overestimating the job market at liberal arts colleges. Yes, there are a lot of them, but they need very few physics faculty. Part of this probably underscores a lack of knowledge on the prof. side- I doubt many research university advisors know anything about the liberal arts college market or the relevant industry markets (as an extreme example of out-of-touch-with-industry, when I told my advisor I probably didn't want a postdoc, he shifted me to a project that involved working with a piece of fortran 77 code, to 'make me more employable'.)

We weren't advised that this was a possibility, but my class would have laughed at any professor that tried to tell us that. In my cohort, the expectation was that we would go on to industry.

I don't understand why anyone who thinks they are going to go into industry would study high energy physics, or any kind of theory. For those fields, getting a job in industry means leaving physics. If everyone thought they were going into industry, the semi-conductor condensed matter groups (both experimental and computational) would be over-run with people, and no one would be getting string theory phds.

 

[twofish-quant]

I can say that my experience can't be that unique, most of my cohort in grad school expressed surprise at job prospects after grad school (usually sometime around second year as they started seeing older students finish up).

I think that much of the problem is that if you don't get an academic job, then you just "fade away." I was actually rather shocked when I learned that the job imbalance started in the 1970's, since most of the physics Ph.D.'s that graduated in the 1970's and 1980's worked in academia. Now obviously there is a massive selection effect here, but it's not obvious when you are in the middle of the situation.

One thing that I find interesting is that none of the reports in the 1990's mentioned this glut of physics Ph.D.'s.

One terrible assumption I made was overestimating the job market at liberal arts colleges. Yes, there are a lot of them, but they need very few physics faculty.

Also what physics teaching that they do need doesn't have to be done by Ph.D.'s. There are a ton of jobs in community colleges, but the skills and expectations that people have are quite different. I remember my first mid-term teacher evaluation at the University of Phoenix in which the students were *SCATHING* at that fact that I couldn't shut up about quantum mechanics. It turns out that most of them weren't at all interested in QM.

the relevant industry markets (as an extreme example of out-of-touch-with-industry, when I told my advisor I probably didn't want a postdoc, he shifted me to a project that involved working with a piece of fortran 77 code, to 'make me more employable'.)

It depends. I got my first job because there was some Fortran 77 code that needed to be babysat.

I don't understand why anyone who thinks they are going to go into industry would study high energy physics, or any kind of theory. For those fields, getting a job in industry means leaving physics.

Well for me, I got my Ph.D. because I wanted a Ph.D. You can extend this further, if your goal is to make the most money with the least effort, then there is no reason to study physics or engineering at all. Most people don't. There is a reason why there are 100x more MBA's than physics Ph.D.'s.

Also physics is a state of mind. I don't think that I've left physics. Now, you might think I've left physics, but I've had enough experience not caring what other people think to not care what other people think. :-) :-) :-) :-)

If everyone thought they were going into industry, the semi-conductor condensed matter groups (both experimental and computational) would be over-run with people, and no one would be getting string theory phds.

That's one of the problems with trying to out-guess the market. If everyone thought that number X would win the lottery, everyone would choose number X, and no one would win.

Maybe it's better instead of trying to outguess the market to just do what you find fun.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I don't understand why anyone who thinks they are going to go into industry would study high energy physics, or any kind of theory. For those fields, getting a job in industry means leaving physics. If everyone thought they were going into industry, the semi-conductor condensed matter groups (both experimental and computational) would be over-run with people, and no one would be getting string theory phds.

Twofish has a good answer. But also remember that to get a job doing exactly what you studied in college - undergrad or graduate - is also the exception, not the norm. You get a major in Russian Literature, and you might find yourself working in HR, or marketing, or (as a friend of mine did) as a translator for the NHL. "Industry" is not a giant silicon lab at Intel.

Some places people went: one does sales for high-end one-of-a-kind test instruments. One works for Boeing on a troubleshooting team. One works for DIA. One works doing government relations for a university. One does medical imaging software. A couple are in finance and oil. And one decided to be a stay-at-home mom.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Twofish? More like fiftyfish.

Oops- my apologies.

The 60's, especially the early 60's, were the post Sputnik period. One of the exceptions I mentioned. But holy smokes - it was 50 years ago. What I don't understand is the perception that somehow that is what's normal and we're somehow in the middle of a 50 year aberration.

What I also don't understand is how 25 years ago, it was understood that getting a faculty job after a PhD was the exception and not the rule, but somehow people seem surprised by that today.

I also suggest you take a look at assistant professor salaries today. They are much better than a postdoc's. State schools often publish their salaries online so you can see. (And remember to multiply by 11/9ths)

 

[Geezer]

You can't find a house for less than $300,000 in California?

If you mean a home with at least two bedrooms--we have a kid, after all--within a one hour commute of our university, and in a decent neighborhood, then I'm not so sure. If the nearby school is sketchy, then we'll need to net (i.e., after taxes) an extra $30K/year to pay for private school.

 

[Geezer]

There are decent jobs in Texas, Washington state, and New York. House prices in Texas are decent. House prices in Washington state are less insane. House prices in NYC are totally insane, but so are salaries.

But we would both have to get jobs in those places before we could move. We've applied; no offers have come through. So we're still hanging out in California.

And if you are really adventurous the are lots of jobs in Asia.

I wouldn't hesitate to leave the U.S.; however, I'm married to someone who has zero desire to be an expat and apparently possesses zero ability to acquire new languages.

This is the market telling you that you should get out of academia. One of the nice things about leaving academia is that suddenly a lot of hand cuffs get removed. Something that you really, really need ask yourself as why is academia so important that you are willing to make your life miserable to stay in it.

Academia isn't important to me, as I've already pointed out, but it's important to my spouse.

 

[Geezer]

If everyone thought they were going into industry, the semi-conductor condensed matter groups (both experimental and computational) would be over-run with people, and no one would be getting string theory phds.

\chuckle

I have a friend who is getting his PhD in string theory, as well as his brother! Two string theorists from one family!

 

[carlgrace]

If you mean a home with at least two bedrooms--we have a kid, after all--within a one hour commute of our university, and in a decent neighborhood, then I'm not so sure. If the nearby school is sketchy, then we'll need to net (i.e., after taxes) an extra $30K/year to pay for private school.

Hey Geezer,

If you work in the Bay Area or in LA (I live or have lived in both places) I can give you some hints on where to look to find an affordable house. There are actually some areas in both regions where the price isn't so bad for what you get.

 

[Geezer]

The big problem with places with very cheap houses is: cheap houses -> low tax base -> awful schools -> private schools.

And private schools cost about $30K/year in our area. Our daughter's preschool (5 days/week, 5 hours/day) is $975/month and that's a bargain where we live. That's $975/month after we've paid $2,000/month for rent. How many post docs can afford that?

 

[twofish-quant]

But we would both have to get jobs in those places before we could move. We've applied; no offers have come through. So we're still hanging out in California.

Something that I did was a long distance commute. For about three years, I worked in NYC and then commuted to Texas on the weekends so that my wife could finish the Ph.D. Scary thing was that it was cheaper than moving everyone up to NYC.

One thing that you have to be aware of is to get anything, you actually have to actively and passionately want to get out of California. If your heart is still in California (and that's not a bad thing), it's unlikely that you'll be able to spend the energy to get out.

I wouldn't hesitate to leave the U.S.; however, I'm married to someone who has zero desire to be an expat and apparently possesses zero ability to acquire new languages.

You can get by with only English.

Academia isn't important to me, as I've already pointed out, but it's important to my spouse.

One thing that helped me a lot was that neither my wife (who also has a Ph.D.) or I really cared that much about getting an academic job. One of my main motivating factors for me to get my Ph.D. was that my father wasn't able to get his, so once I got the degree, I was "finished." My wife has a similar personal story.

I feel I'm stepping into a minefield... But...

Something that you have to be aware of are some of the landmines up ahead. I really know of one recent couple that's been able to pull off a dual academic job, and both are graduates of big name schools, are in growing fields, and one is a dean of a major US university. In the other situations, someone usually has had to make a big sacrifice (i.e. living in different parts of the world) to get into academia. I've seen really bad situations in which one partner ends up with extremely unrealistic expectations, and as reality sets in, bad things happen. Person A wants academic position. Academic position doesn't happen. Person A blames spouse. Spouse resents being blamed.

Something else that I've seen that ends up being nasty is intra-spousal academic jealousy. Person A is hyper-competitive and gets position. Person B isn't and gets less prestigious position. Person A and B have screaming fights.

Having lightning strike once is hard enough. Having it strike twice is even harder.

 

[elfboy]

Getting a PHD in math and physics will present more job opportunities than an MBA because there are so few of them. The patience to get a PHD in a hard science will pay off immensely.

 

[twofish-quant]

I have a friend who is getting his PhD in string theory, as well as his brother! Two string theorists from one family!

Not that unusual. Ph.D's tend to run in the family. Also Ph.D.'s tend to marry each other. There are about a half dozen astronomy/physics couples. Off the top of my head, I can think of the Wills, the Mihales, the Burbidges, the de Vaucouleurs, the Cochrans, the deWitts.

This actually makes it tougher/more traumatic to get out of academia. One weird thing about my life is that it wasn't until I was a freshman in college, that it suddenly dawned on me one day that not everyone gets summers off.

 

[mege]

This actually makes it tougher/more traumatic to get out of academia. One weird thing about my life is that it wasn't until I was a freshman in college, that it suddenly dawned on me one day that not everyone gets summers off.

Unless you're a euro... (http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/05/23/vacation.in.america/index.html?hpt=P1&iref=NS1)


After reading all this - how much of the end job selection is self-selection instead of 'settling'?

A Ph.D. graduates with tons of employable skills (see Physics PhDs in finance). Is that really a hard second choice for many or is the money just that good that it draws some from the 'core' research opportunities off the top so the academic situation isn't as dire as it seems? or is it that most Ph.D graduates try hard for years to get an academic position, fail and then start looking for other alternatives?

 

[twofish-quant]

Getting a PHD in math and physics will present more job opportunities than an MBA because there are so few of them. The patience to get a PHD in a hard science will pay off immensely.

I pretty strongly disagree with that. I don't think it's a matter of this degree being more useful than that one. For example, you could ask whether I'd find it easier or harder to get a job with an MBA or a Ph.D., but for me the question doesn't make much sense because if I had gotten an MBA, I'd be someone else.

One thing thing that seems to be the case is that I don't know of many Ph.D.'s that are doing jobs that *require* a Ph.D. Most Ph.D.'s (including myself) end up doing things that don't absolutely require a Ph.D. So if you look at things this way, a physics Ph.D. certainly doesn't open too many doors.

Put another way, if you really want to get into finance and you don't care how, there are dozens of ways that less work and less effort than getting a physics Ph.D If my life revolved around finance, I would have never gotten a physics Ph.D. But my life revolves around physics, and finance is just a way of paying the bills.

The other thing is that to do well in the world of business, you have to learn MBA skills. Personally, I think that's cool, but that's me.

 

[twofish-quant]

After reading all this - how much of the end job selection is self-selection instead of 'settling'?

Not very much. Think of it this way, it's called "work." If they didn't have to pay someone to do it, they wouldn't. One reason that post-docs make relatively little money is that they can get away with it, and still have the job done.

A Ph.D. graduates with tons of employable skills (see Physics PhDs in finance).

A Ph.D. also graduates with some major weaknesses. Something that helped me a lot was the fact that I'm somewhat cynical and a little arrogant, so sometimes I just do things my way. This helped me a lot because I would have been in serious trouble had I gone through the standard Ph.D. program.

Is that really a hard second choice for many or is the money just that good that it draws some from the 'core' research opportunities off the top so the academic situation isn't as dire as it seems?

If I thought that there was a reasonable chance of getting a "standard academic job" I wouldn't bother to have gone into finance. At some point reality sets in, and you figure out that you just ain't going to get a professorship.

I actually don't spend that much money.

Is it that most Ph.D graduates try hard for years to get an academic position, fail and then start looking for other alternatives?

I didn't try every hard to get a post-doc. It's actually rather harder to make a major change once you've gone through a few rounds of post-docs or are junior faculty, than if you leave with a fresh Ph.D.