Ascending subset sequence with axiom of choice

In summary, the conversation discusses the possibility of using the Axiom of Choice to prove the existence of a sequence of sets with certain properties. It is known that if the sets are measurable, the limit of the outer measure is equal to the outer measure of the union. However, if the sets are not measurable, the direction "\leq" can still be proven easily but the direction "\geq" is more difficult. The conversation also mentions a flaw in the reasoning that assumed continuity from below for the Lebesgue outer measure, and provides a corrected proof.
  • #1
jostpuur
2,116
19
Is it possible to use Axiom of Choice to prove that there would exist a sequence [itex](A_n)_{n=1,2,3,\ldots}[/itex] with the properties: [itex]A_n\subset\mathbb{R}[/itex] for all [itex]n=1,2,3,\ldots[/itex],

[tex]
A_1\subset A_2\subset A_3\subset\cdots
[/tex]

and

[tex]
\lim_{k\to\infty} \lambda^*(A_k) < \lambda^*\Big(\bigcup_{k=1}^{\infty} A_k\Big)
[/tex]

where [itex]\lambda^*[/itex] is the Lebesgue outer measure?

If we assume that all sets [itex]A_1,A_2,A_3,\ldots[/itex] are Lebesgue measurable, then it is known that

[tex]
\lim_{k\to\infty} \lambda(A_k) = \lambda\Big(\bigcup_{k=1}^{\infty} A_k\Big)
[/tex]

If we don't assume that the sets are measurable, the direction "[itex]\leq[/itex]" can still be proven easily, but the direction "[itex]\geq[/itex]" is more difficult.
 
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  • #2
Sorry if this comes from a place of ignorance, but I notice something and I wonder if you'd comment on it.

Since every ##A_n \subset A_{n+1}##, it seems that it follows by induction that ##A_n = \bigcup_{k=0}^n A_k##. If this is the case, it seems that ##\lim_{k\to \infty}A_k=\bigcup_{k=0}^\infty A_k## and so naturally ##\lim_{k\to \infty}\lambda(A_k)=\lambda(\bigcup_{k=0}^\infty A_k)##. If this is true, how would the AoC avoid this?
 
  • #4
The proof on math stack exchange contains a little mistake, but I got a feeling that the proof works anyway, and the little mistake can be fixed. The mistake is that the guy forgets that the sets [itex]G_k[/itex] depend on epsilon, so they are like sets [itex]G_k(\epsilon)[/itex]. He first proves that

[tex]
m\Big(\bigcup_{k=1}^n G_k\Big) < m^*(E_n) + \Big(1 - \frac{1}{2^n}\Big)\epsilon
[/tex]

and then states that because the epsilon is arbitrary, also

[tex]
m\Big(\bigcup_{k=1}^n G_k\Big) \leq m^*(E_n)
[/tex]

would be true, but that does not make sense.

I did not find any mistake before the point where the [itex](1-\frac{1}{2^n})\epsilon[/itex] spread is present, so I believe that it is true. That inequality implies

[tex]
m\Big(\bigcup_{k=1}^{\infty} G_k\Big) \leq \lim_{n\to\infty}m^*(E_n) + \epsilon
[/tex]

and this is sufficient to complete the proof.
 
Last edited:

1. What is an ascending subset sequence?

An ascending subset sequence is a sequence of sets where each set is a subset of the next one in the sequence. This means that each set in the sequence contains all the elements of the previous sets, and may also contain additional elements.

2. What is the axiom of choice?

The axiom of choice is a mathematical principle that states that given any collection of non-empty sets, it is possible to choose one element from each set in the collection. This axiom is often used in mathematics to prove the existence of certain sets or objects.

3. How does the axiom of choice relate to ascending subset sequences?

The axiom of choice is often used to construct ascending subset sequences. This is because the axiom allows us to choose an element from each set in the sequence, which is necessary for the sequence to be ascending. Without the axiom of choice, it may not be possible to construct such a sequence.

4. Why is the axiom of choice sometimes controversial?

The axiom of choice is controversial because it is not directly provable from the other axioms of set theory. Some mathematicians argue that it leads to counterintuitive or paradoxical results, while others believe it is necessary for certain mathematical proofs. The debate over the validity and necessity of the axiom of choice is ongoing in the mathematical community.

5. What are some examples of ascending subset sequences?

One example of an ascending subset sequence is the sequence of natural numbers, where each set in the sequence contains all the previous natural numbers as well as the next one. Another example is the sequence of real numbers, where each set contains all the previous real numbers as well as any additional real numbers. Ascending subset sequences can also be constructed using other mathematical objects, such as functions or matrices.

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