News Baltimore riots after Freddie Gray funeral

[leroyjenkens]

This bothers me. They're acting as if the police have already been convicted. Professor Alan Dershowitz made an interesting point that the prosecutor's charges are not just over-the-top, but perhaps even unfounded in any reality. What will those crowds do when the six officers are acquitted of these ridiculous, over-the-top charges? And then, because of double-jeopardy they can't be charged for the same crime?

I can see charging them with neglect, possibly even a manslaughter charge here or there, but I don't see how any of this amounts to a murder charge.

I doubt we've seen the last of the demonstrations or even the riots.

Yeah, you have to be smart when charging somebody with a crime. At best, I think you could get them for negligent homicide.
The problem is people think when cops encounter somebody and that person ends up dead, that means the cop went out that day thinking "I think I'm going to murder a man today." So in their minds, we have these evil cops on the street, and the state is protecting them. So charging them with murder is exactly what they think is going on; cops are murderous psychopaths and we finally caught them. And some may not know the difference between "charged" and "convicted."
I don't think much will happen if the trial drags on like the Zimmerman trial did. Give people time to cool off and they'll stop caring. What happened when Zimmerman was acquitted? Nothing, from what I remember.

 

[Czcibor]

This bothers me. They're acting as if the police have already been convicted. Professor Alan Dershowitz made an interesting point that the prosecutor's charges are not just over-the-top, but perhaps even unfounded in any reality. What will those crowds do when the six officers are acquitted of these ridiculous, over-the-top charges? And then, because of double-jeopardy they can't be charged for the same crime?

I can see charging them with neglect, possibly even a manslaughter charge here or there, but I don't see how any of this amounts to a murder charge.

I doubt we've seen the last of the demonstrations or even the riots.

Of course not. If you want to make a riot, then there would always be a proper excuse, like in Italy:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/milan-may-...pared-mafia-says-italian-rapper-fedez-1499412

(They did not have police brutality, so had to protest against Expo)

 

[Tobias Funke]

The problem is people think when cops encounter somebody and that person ends up dead, that means the cop went out that day thinking "I think I'm going to murder a man today." So in their minds, we have these evil cops on the street, and the state is protecting them. So charging them with murder is exactly what they think is going on; cops are murderous psychopaths and we finally caught them. And some may not know the difference between "charged" and "convicted."

Yes, that is what those strawmen think.

 

[nsaspook]

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the country - Clashes erupt in U.S. West Coast cities during May Day marches
http://news.yahoo.com/may-day-march-seattle-turns-violent-three-police-034406128.html

And rioting is supposed to help how?

We had a few locally in Portland. Most of the violence was started by the anarchist cult, a special breed of 'power of destruction' crazy that lives here.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Yes, that is what those strawmen think.

I've talked to those strawmen.

 

[Tobias Funke]

I've talked to those strawmen.

Good anecdotal evidence of what "people" [weasel words--what people?] think. Always welcome on PF.

You're wrong though. People actually think that when someone is negligent (at best) and someone dies as a result they should be charged with a crime. They know the difference between "charged" and "convicted". They like purple mittens. I've talked to them!

 

[leroyjenkens]

Good anecdotal evidence of what "people" [weasel words--what people?] think. Always welcome on PF.

You're wrong though. People actually think that when someone is negligent (at best) and someone dies as a result they should be charged with a crime. They know the difference between "charged" and "convicted". They like purple mittens. I've talked to them!

Yes, people think that way too. I don't know how to scientifically prove what someone is thinking, so I have to go by what they say. Thoughts can only manifest as words. Whether or not that's what they're thinking is impossible to know.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Yes, people think that way too. I don't know how to scientifically prove what someone is thinking, so I have to go by what they say. Thoughts can only manifest as words. Whether or not that's what they're thinking is impossible to know.

The issue I had with your post was that you strongly implied that you were describing a typical person celebrating the charges. I can't prove that's what you wanted to do any more than you can prove what someone is thinking, but it was yet another one-sided view. I think the people in Baltimore understand much more about the situation than any of us do, yet the conservatives only want everyone to remain silent until we have all the information to the point that it suits them; notice how nobody responded with their typical faux-neutrality when people criticized the charges as being too severe.

 

[leroyjenkens]

The issue I had with your post was that you strongly implied that you were describing a typical person celebrating the charges. I can't prove that's what you wanted to do any more than you can prove what someone is thinking, but it was yet another one-sided view. I think the people in Baltimore understand much more about the situation than any of us do, yet the conservatives only want everyone to remain silent until we have all the information to the point that it suits them; notice how nobody responded with their typical faux-neutrality when people criticized the charges as being too severe.

I can't say what the typical person celebrating the charges is thinking, but I'm betting there's some of those people I described in the mix. And I'm not sure one person can express anything other than a one-sided view, unless they have multiple personalities disorder.

The people of Baltimore understand much more about the Freddie Gray incident than we do? I don't see how that's necessarily true.

 

[lisab]

I can't say what the typical person celebrating the charges is thinking, but I'm betting there's some of those people I described in the mix. And I'm not sure one person can express anything other than a one-sided view, unless they have multiple personalities disorder.

The people of Baltimore understand much more about the Freddie Gray incident than we do? I don't see how that's necessarily true.

This is bigger than the one isolated case of Freddie Gray. The people who react strongly are probably having an emotional reaction based on their own experiences with the police and/or justice system.

 

[russ_watters]

This is bigger than the one isolated case of Freddie Gray. The people who react strongly are probably having an emotional reaction based on their own experiences with the police and/or justice system.

I'm sure that's true, but unfortunately the only people who can fix it are the rioters and the community that creates them. Unless...

I read an article that discussed - from actual tests and stats - just how effective a reduction in policing was at reducing anti-police complaints (duh). So the other potential solution is to just disband the Baltimore (NYC, Ferguson, Philadelphia, Detroit, LA...) police force and let the city descend into anarchy. Then the "problem" of dissatisfaction with police interactions would go away completely!

 

[Tobias Funke]

I can't say what the typical person celebrating the charges is thinking, but I'm betting there's some of those people I described in the mix. And I'm not sure one person can express anything other than a one-sided view, unless they have multiple personalities disorder.

I think one person certainly can, but at any rate, an entire thread can. This thread has been pretty one-sided.

The people of Baltimore understand much more about the Freddie Gray incident than we do? I don't see how that's necessarily true.

Well, they probably understand that only one officer was actually charged with murder (along with numerous lesser charges). The rest were charged with various degrees of assault or involuntary manslaughter. Nothing about your post leads me to believe that you knew that.

 

[leroyjenkens]

This is bigger than the one isolated case of Freddie Gray. The people who react strongly are probably having an emotional reaction based on their own experiences with the police and/or justice system.

I'd bet very few of them have personally been treated unjustly by the police.

Well, they probably understand that only one officer was actually charged with murder (along with numerous lesser charges).

It's hypocritical to criticize a person for assuming what's in the head of other people and then going ahead and doing that very same thing yourself.

The rest were charged with various degrees of assault or involuntary manslaughter. Nothing about your post leads me to believe that you knew that.

I'm not here to boast about my knowledge; I know very little. "We" encompasses a lot more people than just me.

 

[Muti]

I need to read up on this topic. I've heard it referenced a lot, but don't know anything about it. Sounds very interesting.

I too am interested in this topic... Someone should start a discussion about it.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I too am interested in this topic... Someone should start a discussion about it.

Curiously when I google search it, mostly conservative blogs are listed.

 

[Tobias Funke]

I'm not here to boast about my knowledge; I know very little. "We" encompasses a lot more people than just me.

Then why post confidently about what people think?

Curiously when I google search it, mostly conservative blogs are listed.

Is it really that curious?

 

[Esnas]

Very good intro for a dialog on such a sensitive issue, Astronuc. My congratulations. Direct and honest dialog is very much needed in situations such as this. As lisab say's "This is bigger than the one isolated case of Freddie Gray". Of course, language communication has it’s own problems (as N Chomsky mentioned succinctly in his Google Talk 2014, 13:50) On the other hand, it is difficult to think about effective communication without language. When there can be friendly, honest and direct communication with people who feel that they have been directly vicitimized because of race and those who have been privilaged because of race there might be the beginning of a change in perspectives. The two groups are in it together.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

I am going to say things that may get taken the wrong way, so please read carefully:

I am "privileged." Most who post here are of that ilk. We're privileged because we grew up in reasonably whole families, in communities that cared for us, and that we were able to learn the lessons our society cares most about. At one point in our lives, my parents and I were on welfare. The difference between us and many people in West Baltimore is that we had ambition, a religious sense of duty, and a feeling that we weren't going to stay this way.

This is not about money. This is not about race. This is about a state of mind, and a culture of utter despair. As one of those horrible, evil, tax-paying Republicans, I hate to see tax money wasted. Note how I wrote that. I'm not opposed to paying the taxes, or spending the money. I want to see a return on the investment. I want to see those people in Baltimore become productive, prosperous people. I want them paying taxes too. I want them to feel a sense of ownership in the city and its services too.

There have been other minorities who have washed through the city in the past. Yes, they were poor, but they all had strong community, a sense of duty, and a commitment to building a better future. This one lacks that drive in many ways.

The question we have to ask is not just one of language, but means. How can we instill that sense of community, commitment to the future, and ethics to people that have so little to begin with? Until we answer that question, we can throw more money at them than we can afford, and it still won't make any difference.

 

[Esnas]

Thank you, JakeBrodskyPE, for what appears to me to be your honest thoughts on the conversation that I raised above. I can certainly see that "state of mind", despair, anger and a belief that things have not gotten better would be the background for the recent destruction in Baltimore. I've only been to Baltimore once many years ago to visit a Black friend who had finished his graduate degree at Oxford (in England) so I guess that he does not count. I know no other people in Baltimore (that I am aware of). I assume that you do know "many people in West Baltimore" who were part of the protest group. Am I correct in paraphrasing you to say that these people have (1) no ambition, (2) have a culture of utter despair and (3) lack drive? I'm not sure what a "religious sense of duty" would look like. This is enough for now and I've only dealt with your first paragraph! Maybe the second paragraph next time. I shall continue to read your responses carefully but I cannot guarantee that we will arrive at the same meaning.

 

[Muti]

Then why post confidently about what people think?

What is issue with most of peoples here... I admit most of peoples are very knowledgeable and that is why it is their right to ridicule anyone based on their thinking that being more knowledgeable they have a right. Preaching freedom of speech and unable of to listen to anything they consider wrong. Wow ... Lastly if we have a few more of such enlightened peoples we may have first no animals left in this world because animals can not solve mathematics and physics question. Then ...

 

[nsaspook]

What is issue with most of peoples here... I admit most of peoples are very knowledgeable and that is why it is their right to ridicule anyone based on their thinking that being more knowledgeable they have a right. Preaching freedom of speech and unable of to listen to anything they consider wrong. Wow ... Lastly if we have a few more of such enlightened peoples we may have first no animals left in this world because animals can not solve mathematics and physics question. Then ...

I must say that people today are just too damn sensitive. Vehement disagreement is not ridicule and freedom of speech also includes the right to ignore that speech or just walk away shaking your head.

 

[Muti]

freedom of speech also includes the right to ignore that speech or just walk away shaking your head.

Thank you for enlightening me. Next time I will not be sensitive rather I just walk away shaking my head...

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Thank you, JakeBrodskyPE, for what appears to me to be your honest thoughts on the conversation that I raised above. I can certainly see that "state of mind", despair, anger and a belief that things have not gotten better would be the background for the recent destruction in Baltimore. I've only been to Baltimore once many years ago to visit a Black friend who had finished his graduate degree at Oxford (in England) so I guess that he does not count. I know no other people in Baltimore (that I am aware of). I assume that you do know "many people in West Baltimore" who were part of the protest group. Am I correct in paraphrasing you to say that these people have (1) no ambition, (2) have a culture of utter despair and (3) lack drive? I'm not sure what a "religious sense of duty" would look like. This is enough for now and I've only dealt with your first paragraph! Maybe the second paragraph next time. I shall continue to read your responses carefully but I cannot guarantee that we will arrive at the same meaning.

I'm not sure what the point of your reply was. If you would like to suggest an alternate point of view, please do so.

 

[Esnas]

I'm not sure what the point of your reply was. If you would like to suggest an alternate point of view, please do so.

The point was to confirm from you that I had correctly understood your first paragraph. I did this by paraphrasing what seemed to be conveyed in your first paragraph. I was simply waiting for that confirmation and/or an expansion of the points that you already made in that paragraph. Generally, I prefer to take things very slowly. A few points at a time.

 

[Esnas]

I am going to say things that may get taken the wrong way, so please read carefully:

I am "privileged." Most who post here are of that ilk. We're privileged because we grew up in reasonably whole families, in communities that cared for us, and that we were able to learn the lessons our society cares most about. At one point in our lives, my parents and I were on welfare. The difference between us and many people in West Baltimore is that we had ambition, a religious sense of duty, and a feeling that we weren't going to stay this way.

This was your first paragraph. My response to that paragraph is above #119. Did I correctly paraphrase what you said?

 

[Evo]

This thread has been going in circles and is now getting personal, closed.