Basic set theory with quantors question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of a logical statement involving quantifiers in set theory, specifically focusing on the expression ∃c . ∀a ∈ A . ∀b ∈ B . ¬(a = b) ∨ c = b. Participants are exploring the implications of this statement regarding the intersection of two sets A and B, and whether it can contain more than one element.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the logic behind the statement and its implications for the intersection of sets A and B.
  • Another participant provides a specific example with sets A = {1,2,3} and B = {4,2,3} to challenge the existence of a suitable c that satisfies the statement.
  • A participant questions the interpretation of the "there exists" quantifier, noting that it implies at least one instance but does not necessarily limit the count to one.
  • Further clarification is sought regarding whether multiple values of c can satisfy the statement simultaneously for all cases where a equals b.
  • Participants discuss the necessity for any chosen c to work for all possible cases, leading to the conclusion that only one c can fulfill the condition in this context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion reveals a lack of consensus on the implications of the logical statement, particularly regarding the number of valid c values and their relationship to the intersection of sets A and B. Participants are exploring different interpretations and examples without reaching a definitive agreement.

Contextual Notes

Participants are navigating the nuances of quantifiers and their implications in set theory, with some assumptions about the nature of the sets and the values of c remaining unexamined.

Smalde
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This is no homework for me.
I am working as a teaching assistant in a lecture about logic and discrete structures for Informatics students. This should be a piece of cake, but I am not exactly sure of the logic behind.

1. Homework Statement


Translate into words
∃c . ∀a ∈ A . ∀b ∈ B . ¬(a = b) ∨ c = b

The Attempt at a Solution



So obviously this means that there is a c such that for all a element of A and all b element of B either a is different than b or c is b or both.
The problem is that they also said that this means that the intersection of A and B has maximally one Element, 1 ≥ |A ∩ B|.My questions is how exactly can one conclude the last part. ∃c means that there is at least one, not necessarily only one.

Obviously for the statement to be true whenever a equals b c has to equal b and thus a, so either ¬(a = b) or a = b = c. But if there can be two cs this statement can be true for two different bs and as and so the intersection needs not be maximally 1...

Could you help me out?

PS: I am not sure if this has to be here... I can move it to another sub-forum if necessary.
 
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Smalde said:
But if there can be two cs

Suppose ##A = \{1,2,3\}##, ##B = \{4,2,3\}##. Can you find any c that satisfies the statement in the problem?
 
Stephen Tashi said:
Suppose ##A = \{1,2,3\}##, ##B = \{4,2,3\}##. Can you find any c that satisfies the statement in the problem?
Well 2 and 3. That's what I do not understand. I was told that the "there exists" symbol means that there exists at least one of something.
 
Smalde said:
Well 2 and 3. That's what I do not understand. I was told that the "there exists" symbol means that there exists at least one of something.
Ok, wait.

I think I get it now: there can exist more than one, but all ought to fulfill the statement in every one case. Is it so?
 
Smalde said:
Well 2 and 3.
Neither 2 nor 3 works.

For example c = 2 does not work for the case a = 3, b = 3.
 
Smalde said:
Ok, wait.

I think I get it now: there can exist more than one, but all ought to fulfill the statement in every one case. Is it so?

Stephen Tashi said:
Neither 2 nor 3 works.

For example c = 2 does not work for the case a = 3, b = 3.

Yes, that's what took me so long to understand. Those cs have to work for all possible cases where a equals b. In other words, in this case, there can only be one such c.

THANKS!
 

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