Become a Scientist: Engineer or Physicist?

[KeshavTheBest]

Hello, I would like to become a 'scientist' that can research new things and give theories but also is capable of inventing stuff. For example (just am example, don't say not possible please :( ) I research about how a kerr black hole can be made and used to travel time. I reach to a conclusion. But instead of publishing it, I decide to go on and using this, make a time machine myself.
I have always watched scientists like these in movies, anime, etc. and I want to become one myself. So which course for this? Some people, when I posted here a year ago, said do mechatronics. I can do mechatronics and become an engineer to invent things but if I study physics in depth side by side will it make me as capable as a scientist? Of course, this way I will only have a degree in engineering and that is fine. I just want to be able to become a self proclaimed scientist.
Thanks in advance.

 

[symbolipoint]

Puff, the Magic Dragon,...
...but Jacky Paper had to grow up, go to school, and probably studied Engineering (and some Physics, too) and found a job as an engineer. Jacky's toys had changed by then, and maybe, yours will also.

 

[KeshavTheBest]

Puff, the Magic Dragon,...
...but Jacky Paper had to grow up, go to school, and probably studied Engineering (and some Physics, too) and found a job as an engineer. Jacky's toys had changed by then, and maybe, yours will also.

huh? I did not quite understand what you replied. The last line though, seems to hint that my dream will change? nah man. It is never going to be changed. Only reply if you want to answer what I asked.

 

[donpacino]

I just want to be able to become a self proclaimed scientist.

If your goal is to be a self proclaimed scientist then study whatever you want and ask people to call you Dr.

 

[Dr.D]

If your goal is to be a self proclaimed scientist then study whatever you want and ask people to call you Dr.

Not all true scientists have doctoral degrees, and not all doctoral degree holders make any claim at all to being scientists. It seems that this might have been better phrased.

 

[donpacino]

Not all true scientists have doctoral degrees, and not all doctoral degree holders make any claim at all to being scientists. It seems that this might have been better phrased.

Ok, then Op should call himself Dr scientist...

 

[Choppy]

Remember that you're not deciding on a career right now. You're deciding on an educational path. And in most cases you're not looking at a dichotomous decision that will lead to one of two independent careers, but different branches that have considerable overlap, with different advantages and disadvantages.

By choosing an education in one of the engineering disciplines, you'll be focusing more on the applications of physics and mathematics for the purposes of building things. Since engineering is a professional field, you'll graduate with a skill set and the credentials necessary to enter this profession right after the completion of an undergraduate degree. You can still go on to graduate school - generally for engineering. Depending on the details of your education you may also be able to go to graduate school for physics, but in most cases you'll have some catching up to do.

By choosing an undergraduate degree in physics, you'll get an education that is in most cases designed to prepare you for graduate school and ultimately to become a scientist. You won't have the same credentials as an engineering graduate in the workforce though, which will likely make it more of a challenge to find a job. And it's important to remember that the probability of an academic career for a physics graduate is extremely low, even for those who are extremely intelligent and hard-working. They still tend to get good careers in terms of pay and job satisfaction. But they aren't professors studying black holes.

You can also try to mix the two. Many universities offer majors in engineering physics and/or applied physics that can offer the right balance between professional credentials and background in physics for a given student. The disadvantage with this is that they have to pack a lot in, which means there tends to be less elective room.

 

[symbolipoint]

Puff, the Magic Dragon,...
...but Jacky Paper had to grow up, go to school, and probably studied Engineering (and some Physics, too) and found a job as an engineer. Jacky's toys had changed by then, and maybe, yours will also.

huh? I did not quite understand what you replied. The last line though, seems to hint that my dream will change? nah man. It is never going to be changed. Only reply if you want to answer what I asked.

My response was a way of trying to use some piece of popular or former popular lyric artistry to give advice. Look for the lyrics to Puff the Magic Dragon.
Whatever your age, you seem to be young and as you grow, your NEEDS will change and the desire you have now of becoming a scientist will need to be modified so that you would find something practical to earn an income. Study Mathematics and Physics if you want; but also build some practical skills so you will be more able to find a job, be employed, and earn an income. Having practical skills does not mean you could not be also a scientist.

The world wants to get people to design things. The scientist wants to understand nature and matter and energy.
You may want to try to study beyond bachelors degree in some science field such as Physics, but you should also include skills that employers want, like computer programming, engineering, and whatever else.

 

[russ_watters]

Whatever your age, you seem to be young and as you grow, your NEEDS will change and the desire you have now of becoming a scientist will need to be modified so that you would find something practical to earn an income.

In addition, learning more about science will almost certainly change what a prospective scientist wants to study.

 

[symbolipoint]

In addition, learning more about science will almost certainly change what a prospective scientist wants to study.

I agree. You might want to explain it more for KeshavTheBest. I believe the member SHOULD study physical sciences and mathematics. He will then learn what he is good at, find what he likes and does not like, and find (hopefully, maybe with guidance) his sense of direction.

 

[KeshavTheBest]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I still have 1.5 years of school left so I thought maybe pre planning would be good. I have only studied basic quantum mechanics like quantum model of an atom. I am trying to go ahead of the school by studying at home like I am currently studying GR. I also dipped into some other concepts manly becuase saw them get mentioned and checked it out. So yeah I have still a long way to go.
My actual question was basically how can I become a scientist is capable of inventing stuff. I came around a word 'experimental' physicist. By the name it sounds like they do have some skills to apply physics. Can anyone tell me if it is true?

 

[symbolipoint]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I still have 1.5 years of school left so I thought maybe pre planning would be good. I have only studied basic quantum mechanics like quantum model of an atom. I am trying to go ahead of the school by studying at home like I am currently studying GR. I also dipped into some other concepts manly becuase saw them get mentioned and checked it out. So yeah I have still a long way to go.
My actual question was basically how can I become a scientist is capable of inventing stuff. I came around a word 'experimental' physicist. By the name it sounds like they do have some skills to apply physics. Can anyone tell me if it is true?

Readers may understand what you mean about "quantum" mechanics if they can relate this to what is usually taught to high school Chemistry or other science courses from high school; or from an introductory or "elementary" course on Chemistry from a community college. The level of advancement is very, very low.

The goal of a scientist is to explore and understand.
The goal of a technologist and of an engineer is to design and apply scientifically learned principles.
Some sharing occurs between the two sides.

 

[russ_watters]

I agree. You might want to explain it more for KeshavTheBest.

Sure: I'm a mechanical engineer. I knew from childhood that I wanted to design airplanes and/or spacecraft and I knew that job description was "aerospace engineer" by the time I was in middle school. Anyone paying any attention would know this.

Physics isn't like that. I'm 41 and have been a PF moderator for something like 15 years and I could not do a good job describing the various physics research job descriptions. Everyone knows what an airplane is, but few people know what "condensed matter" or "high energy" physics actually means (if they even recognize the terms).

The OP is asking what field to study, and clearly does not know what fields even exist, so there isn't any answer that he could get that would even mean anything to him at this point in his education.

The question being asked is at face value a little bit silly, but the general answer is that if you want to invent new physics, start with a physics BS and re-evaluate when you get near the end of it and understand the various paths to take from there. At that point you will be better equipped to focus your effort.

And here's the beauty: even if you think you know what you want now, it doesn't matter: you start the same way so there is no penalty for setting aside your aspirations for a few years to lay the necessary groundwork.

 

[symbolipoint]

This seems unusual, which russ_waters said:

I knew from childhood that I wanted to design airplanes and/or spacecraft and I knew that job description was "aerospace engineer" by the time I was in middle school.

Most middle school students do not have such a specific career plan or objective as you had. Their parents might tell them what they will do or become or what they will study but in a few short years, these kids may have enough awareness to know how to change their own minds. Many of them will not know what they want even during and toward the end of high school, and if go to college, might change major field two or three times.

 

[russ_watters]

This seems unusual, which russ_waters said:
Most middle school students do not have such a specific career plan or objective as you had.

Granted. But my point was that if they do, their understanding of the idea is good enough and the path to get to it clear-cut. The same cannot be said of physics.

 

[KeshavTheBest]

This seems unusual, which russ_waters said:
Most middle school students do not have such a specific career plan or objective as you had. Their parents might tell them what they will do or become or what they will study but in a few short years, these kids may have enough awareness to know how to change their own minds. Many of them will not know what they want even during and toward the end of high school, and if go to college, might change major field two or three times.

Actually I also had planned that I will choose a career in the science field only from a small age.

Alright I think I understand now what guys mean, that when I further study in physics and think what is good for me, I will have to choose a specific branch to be specialized in.
I have 2 last things to ask, how much knowledge of electronics does a physicist have? Like I have heard that there are physicists that have done great inventions. Let's take this hypothetical example once again, A person is trying to find a way to make a kerr black hole and he is successful in it after experimenting things and using his findings, builds a time machine. So will that guy be an experimental physicist or an engineer? I know this one is a bit dumb but I want to know if the above example was a work done by a physicist or an engineer.

 

[donpacino]

I have 2 last things to ask, how much knowledge of electronics does a physicist have? Like I have heard that there are physicists that have done great inventions. Let's take this hypothetical example once again, A person is trying to find a way to make a kerr black hole and he is successful in it after experimenting things and using his findings, builds a time machine. So will that guy be an experimental physicist or an engineer? I know this one is a bit dumb but I want to know if the above example was a work done by a physicist or an engineer.

Professionally... You won't. At its peak the Manhatten project employed 120,000 people, a few thousand of which were at Los Alamos site (thats peak, not cumulative). It takes MANY people to make complicated products. Thats not saying you won't cross into other fields. Many people wear multiple hats at their jobs. It just depends on the skillset you develop. Keep in mind that if you have 1000 tasks to do, 200 people doing 5 tasks each might be cheaper AND take much less time than 1 person doing 1000 tasks.

Recreationally: Sure. You can learn all sorts of stuff on your own and get fairly good at it. This day and age there are many things you can buy in a black box form for the things you don't know. So you don't need to implement it, you can just use it. Example: a PC and a printer, adding a camera to your drone, etc

 

[donpacino]

So will that guy be an experimental physicist or an engineer?

Don't worry about labels. Worry about enjoying what you do and getting paid to do it

 

[KeshavTheBest]

Alright, I got my answers, thanks
So I can become a physicist and still do a few things that an engineer can. But can it be said vice versa also? Like I become a mechatronics engineer. And I try to do some non-profit research in say particle physics, will I have sufficient knowledge to do it?
I am inclined towards become a physicist right now as I do not care that about cash.
is Germany a good country for this field? since education is free over there and I think employment is almost guaranteed over there, I was thinking of going there to study and get a job. Since in my current country, I don't think I will get a job in this field.

 

[analogdesign]

I seriously doubt you will be able to make a contribution to Particle Physics if you're not a Particle Physicist or an engineer working on building the experiments. The field is too esoteric and specialized now. It would be more than a full-time job just to keep up with the field. The Particle Physicists I know are highly, highly specialized and even refer to themselves as such (e.g. I'm a neutrino oscillation guy).

Physicists make decent money... the trick is getting the job in the first place. I'm an engineer and I work with physicists building instrumentation for experiments. I make more money than they do for one simple reason: working at a research lab is not the top choice for an engineer (I could make more elsewhere) but it is the top choice for a physicist.

But like people are saying, you won't really know what you're interested in until you encounter it. I spent seven years deeply studying one small aspect of Electrical Engineering in graduate school that I couldn't have even identified as a subject when I was in high school.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

My actual question was basically how can I become a scientist is capable of inventing stuff. I came around a word 'experimental' physicist. By the name it sounds like they do have some skills to apply physics. Can anyone tell me if it is true?

I sure hope so. But most of the inventions of experimental physicists are for conducting research in specific areas of experimental physics. Most of what we invent won't find its way into cars, planes, electronics, or other consumer goods. Most of the time, our inventions simply enable us to be the first to make some new investigations or discoveries that become possible through the new tools. Then, it is common for a few dozen other scientists working in the same or related fields to also make use of our invention.

 

[KeshavTheBest]

I did not want to post another thread, so I will just post here (it is my thread afterall)
I discovered something new in me. I am currently studying high level physics on my own as I am in school right now and there is a lot of free time (still have 2 years till I join a university) and the new thing is that, I can't stop myself from learning more. I am absolutely loving physics (I am currently studying GR and occasionally take up theories related to time travel and discover new things) so I think I have found what I should do. I will take up physics as I have more interest in it than engineering. But there is one thing...We are not that rich so we will be taking a loan most likely when I start my studies. So I have to repay that loan and hence need money quickly. Engineering will take 6 years but if I do physics, I heard phd is necessary so atleast 10 years.
I want to know is it really necessary to do phd in order to become a physicist? PhD is basically original research, right? So that means if I do research while studying and be able to publish some work (hypothetical, don't take it seriously. I know it is hard to do original work) will I still need to do phd? Also if I go with engineering (mechatronics) and study physics side by side while stydijg/working, will that be enough to do some private research?

 

[ZapperZ]

I want to know is it really necessary to do phd in order to become a physicist? PhD is basically original research, right? So that means if I do research while studying and be able to publish some work (hypothetical, don't take it seriously. I know it is hard to do original work) will I still need to do phd? Also if I go with engineering (mechatronics) and study physics side by side while stydijg/working, will that be enough to do some private research?

Read this:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/so-you-want-to-be-a-physicist-22-part-guide.240792/

Do you think you'd be able to have the same type of skills and experience that a typical physics PhD program demands? And no, PhD does NOT just mean "original research". That is just one part of it. Graduate level work AND other requirements are also part of a PhD program.

Zz.

 

[Crass_Oscillator]

The job market in fancy/fundamental physics is horrible, I'd double major in engineering (preferably materials or electrical) and physics or a minor in physics. Heck, the job market in any physics with no industrial relevance is pretty awful, to the point where the majority of grad students even at fancy schools often leave the field.

If you want a higher probability of actually getting a job applying neat statistical/quantum physics, pursue a graduate degree, most likely a PhD, in materials or electrical engineering, or applied physics.

Also, there's a lot more progress in the fields I mentioned rather than in basic physical science, so I at least generally feel like what I'm doing is better than pontificating into the aether.

 

[KeshavTheBest]

The job market in fancy/fundamental physics is horrible, I'd double major in engineering (preferably materials or electrical) and physics or a minor in physics. Heck, the job market in any physics with no industrial relevance is pretty awful, to the point where the majority of grad students even at fancy schools often leave the field.

If you want a higher probability of actually getting a job applying neat statistical/quantum physics, pursue a graduate degree, most likely a PhD, in materials or electrical engineering, or applied physics.

Also, there's a lot more progress in the fields I mentioned rather than in basic physical science, so I at least generally feel like what I'm doing is better than pontificating into the aether.

I will be doing my studies in Germany, so I think I will work there only. Will I be able to get a job after masters (particle physics or maybe cosmology, I have interest in these 2 fields). If yes, then I can work and earn some cash and after a year or 2 I can take up PhD. is it possible? I am not really interested in Engineering (except mechatronics) and I know if I take engineering, I will never ever in my life feel satisfied. I will regret it my whole life. I don't want that to happen.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The job market in fancy/fundamental physics is horrible

and occasionally take up theories related to time travel

The job market in time travel is even more horrible.

 

[max1995]

I will be doing my studies in Germany, so I think I will work there only. Will I be able to get a job after masters (particle physics or maybe cosmology, I have interest in these 2 fields). If yes, then I can work and earn some cash and after a year or 2 I can take up PhD. is it possible? I am not really interested in Engineering (except mechatronics) and I know if I take engineering, I will never ever in my life feel satisfied. I will regret it my whole life. I don't want that to happen.

You're getting way too ahead of yourself in terms of deciding what you are going to research, if you want to take a risk and try to become a physics researcher then go study physics then see where your interests develop as you start to cover the real physics (you say you are studying GR atm, I can tell you that you arent studying anything close to real GR yet, that is a very advanced topic in physics)

You also need to take into account that most blue sky physics research has high competition and low amounts of funding so make sure you have a back up career as you will probably not make a career out of physics research (in things like PP anyway) but there is no harm in trying.

You can get jobs with a physics masters but not in physics research, you would most likely get jobs in software dev, engineering, depending on your skills then some lab jobs (none research based)

 

[Dr.D]

I am not really interested in Engineering (except mechatronics) and I know if I take engineering, I will never ever in my life feel satisfied. I will regret it my whole life.

Pretty dramatic, to say the least! Let me say a word or two about earning a living in the real world. Holding a job is about doing something that someone else is willing to pay you to do. If no one is willing to pay you, you do not have a job, but rather you have a hobby. Can you afford to spend your whole life on your hobby? Some folks can indeed do so, but not many.

 

[donpacino]

Can you afford to spend your whole life on your hobby? Some folks can indeed do so, but not many.

One can invest all earnings into the lottery. If you keep playing your chance of winning eventually break 100% right?

 

[KeshavTheBest]

I will take do theoretical physics. After Masters, what kind of job will I be able to get? I heard that you can get a job as a professor in a university. is it a job good enough till I get enough cash to do phd? You guys are saying jobs are horrible in this field but people say that jobs are the worst in engineering field because there are just so many people in that field. Germany funds RnD highly so isn't it a good spot for research jobs?

 

[Vanadium 50]

After Masters, what kind of job will I be able to get? I heard that you can get a job as a professor in a university.

This is very unlikely. You need a PhD, usually several years experience post-PhD, and even then there are for more applicants than positions.

 

[KeshavTheBest]

This is very unlikely. You need a PhD, usually several years experience post-PhD, and even then there are for more applicants than positions.

Then is there a way I can do my phd but also earn something? Because I do need to survive and pay the rent.
EDIT: I was talking to my friend about this and he said you get paid while you do phd?! seriously? he said it is called a stipend and I don't know what it is. I google'd it and found that it is around 1650 euro per month in Germany which is actually great. But can anyone tell me more about it? Like is it for a limited period or there are restrictions on it or maybe not everyone get it? Because if I indeed get paid that much, then my future is already set! My parents have enough for me to study till masters. PhD was the main problem here. I have been very anxious about it since quite a few days so I do not want to get my hopes up just yet. Someone please confirm it. Thanks in advance

 

[Crass_Oscillator]

Jobs are horrible in fancy physics (e.g. pencil and paper professional pontification about black holes), but in Europe, jobs for computational physics might be better than in the US.

In that case, you'll be spending your time coding and managing computers like I do. Which, I greatly enjoy, but which might not conform to your expectations.

 

[Anon1000]

Hello, I would like to become a 'scientist' that can research new things and give theories but also is capable of inventing stuff. For example (just am example, don't say not possible please :( ) I research about how a kerr black hole can be made and used to travel time. I reach to a conclusion. But instead of publishing it, I decide to go on and using this, make a time machine myself.
I have always watched scientists like these in movies, anime, etc. and I want to become one myself. So which course for this? Some people, when I posted here a year ago, said do mechatronics. I can do mechatronics and become an engineer to invent things but if I study physics in depth side by side will it make me as capable as a scientist? Of course, this way I will only have a degree in engineering and that is fine. I just want to be able to become a self proclaimed scientist.
Thanks in advance.

Physicist, Engineering is more commercial, Physicist is more theoretical, proof of concept stuff.

Having said that I like Engineering more and I think they do a more valuable job. Physicists don't really have that much to do at this point, it's all either Astrophysics at ten million million million lightyears away, or its Quantum Mechanics theorization (and even then, it's still one experiment every 20 years out of CERN, you can't really do any Physics experiments anymore).

Whatever you do, WHATEVER you do, always pay attention to how many jobs there are for your field and how much they pay. You can get information about this from your country's reports on jobs and the labour market, or just by looking up a job board and looking at the numbers. Because you're not really given a choice in this matter, either you're working in a field where there are jobs, or you're unemployed. And if you want to do things without being paid that's your business, but if you want to be paid, you're not just going to be paid for every degree out there. And by all means have a look how many sociology or economics jobs exist in the world, because there aren't very many.

PS I just read you saying that "you watched scientists in movies". That sounds to me like you're being told by your parents or society that you need to go to college and you're trying to convince yourself that you really like it by tying it to a form of entertainment that you actually do like (in other words, what you really like is watching the Anime, not the scientist). I would not do that. All of your decisions should be your own.

 

[KeshavTheBest]

Physicist, Engineering is more commercial, Physicist is more theoretical, proof of concept stuff.

Having said that I like Engineering more and I think they do a more valuable job. Physicists don't really have that much to do at this point, it's all either Astrophysics at ten million million million lightyears away, or its Quantum Mechanics theorization (and even then, it's still one experiment every 20 years out of CERN, you can't really do any Physics experiments anymore).

Whatever you do, WHATEVER you do, always pay attention to how many jobs there are for your field and how much they pay. You can get information about this from your country's reports on jobs and the labour market, or just by looking up a job board and looking at the numbers. Because you're not really given a choice in this matter, either you're working in a field where there are jobs, or you're unemployed. And if you want to do things without being paid that's your business, but if you want to be paid, you're not just going to be paid for every degree out there. And by all means have a look how many sociology or economics jobs exist in the world, because there aren't very many.

PS I just read you saying that "you watched scientists in movies". That sounds to me like you're being told by your parents or society that you need to go to college and you're trying to convince yourself that you really like it by tying it to a form of entertainment that you actually do like (in other words, what you really like is watching the Anime, not the scientist). I would not do that. All of your decisions should be your own.

This is my very own decision, my family wants me to go the engineering route but it is me that wants to go the physics route. I will do pay attention to the jobs. can you tell me if a transition is possible from physics to another field (of science ofcourse) or if physics guys can get jobs in other fields that pay well? Because I just want to study this thing because I want to know more about the universe. I will try my best to remain in the field only but if certain things happen and I am forced to make a transition, I need advice for then.