What Drives the Madness of Black Friday Shopping?

[Ivan Seeking]

I've been sitting here watching reports of violence at Walmarts and Target stores due to the Black Friday frenzy. They also referenced one incident that happened last year [?] in which a man was trampled to death in a Black Friday rush.

Unbelievable! And all for a bunch of junk.

One woman apparently pepper sprayed her way to the front of the line, paid for her purchases, and left before anyone did anything!

 

[Saladsamurai]

Yeah; It's pretty gross. The whole security guard being trampled to death incident really infuriates me. I don't know what is wrong with people. Is a free Netbook really worth someone's life?

 

[PookDo]

I was watching the news last night after work and one person waiting in line looked bat poo crazy and the couple first in line said they had spent only an hour with their family and friends.I read the pepper spray article too. It makes me weep for humanity

 

[Astronuc]

Woman pepper sprays other Black Friday shoppers
http://news.yahoo.com/woman-pepper-sprays-other-black-friday-shoppers-110009506.html

I hope she receives jail time. I presume they would be able to find that person. If she used a credit or debit card, then the store would have receipts. It's possible she's on the store security videos.

 

[Saladsamurai]

Woman pepper sprays other Black Friday shoppers
http://news.yahoo.com/woman-pepper-sprays-other-black-friday-shoppers-110009506.html

I hope she receives jail time. I presume they would be able to find that person. If she used a credit or debit card, then the store would have receipts. It's possible she's on the store security videos.

Wow. I do too. Though being L.A., I am surprised nobody sucker-punched her.

 

[Evo]

Another shopper was shot and critically wounded walking out to his car from Walmart.

Black Friday got off to an early and violent start this year. Police said 20 people were injured at a Los Angeles Walmart store when a woman sprayed her fellow shoppers with pepper spray.

The Los Angeles Times said the incident followed a scuffle that broke out among customers waiting to buy Xbox and Wii video games. Police called it a "competitive shopping incident."

In Northern California, police say a Black Friday shopper was shot and critically wounded during a robbery outside a Walmart in San Leandro.

Police said the victim and several other shoppers were walking to their cars after making their purchases when they were confronted by multiple suspects who demanded the merchandise.

Disgusting.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2011/11/black-friday-gets-underway-with-shooting-pepper-spray-incidents.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The point was correctly made, I think, that the stores will have to start taking some responsibility for this. They are creating a mob mentality by design.

 

[PookDo]

I think there is a really weird psychology going on with people in general. People have become super irrational. I work in the video repair call center for Comcast and I see this every day.People have incredibly unrealistic expectations and very often expect something for nothing or have that oh so prevalent entitlement attitude.I would never treat anyone the way I am quite often treated over the phone

 

[PookDo]

The point was correctly made, I think, that the stores will have to start taking some responsibility for this. They are creating a mob mentality by design.

I agree with that but I think the media is at fault at well.Reminds me of that lie from Fught Club " advertising has us chasing cars and clothes. work jobs we hate so we can by **** we don't need"

 

[turbo]

WalMart, Target, Best Buy, etc, should be held fully responsible for personal injuries suffered during the frenzies that they whip up in the clueless. Terms like "doorbuster" are splashed all over the fliers that get inserted into our newspapers leading up to Black Friday. It's sad to see people all lathered up about the chance to buy some Chinese-made electronic junk. If they could only wait until after Christmas, they could get their junk even cheaper.

 

[wuliheron]

In other countries people fight over food, here we fight over Tickle Me Elmo. Small wonder the economy is in such a mess.

 

[dlgoff]

I think there is a really weird psychology going ...

My X-Wife

It's sad to see people all lathered up about the chance to buy some Chinese-made electronic junk. If they could only wait until after Christmas, they could get their junk even cheaper.

See above. Some people just can't help themselves.

 

[Willowz]

Dawn of the dead!

 

[ArcanaNoir]

Nothing crazy happened at my Walmart. I went last night at ten to get the comfy new office chair I'm sitting in now. It was quite crowded, but not pushy-shovey. I went out this morning around 9:30. Walmart was deserted. It was nice, but they had already sold out of the sewing machine tote-bag I wanted. I got one at another store for a great price anyway. I was glad about stores that opened last night or super early this morning. It meant there were fewer crowds when I was out. I also liked how many of the deals you could get online. That's the easiest.

 

[KingNothing]

Here's a video of a local Urban Outfitters:

 

[Pengwuino]

The point was correctly made, I think, that the stores will have to start taking some responsibility for this. They are creating a mob mentality by design.

WalMart, Target, Best Buy, etc, should be held fully responsible for personal injuries suffered during the frenzies that they whip up in the clueless. Terms like "doorbuster" are splashed all over the fliers that get inserted into our newspapers leading up to Black Friday. It's sad to see people all lathered up about the chance to buy some Chinese-made electronic junk. If they could only wait until after Christmas, they could get their junk even cheaper.

Nonsense. This is mainly the shopper's fault. They are the ones who decide to assault other shoppers. Wal-mart doesn't tell shoppers to bring pepper spray with them to the store. Wal-mart doesn't tell them to spray. I hate this ridiculous mentality that people can't be held responsible for their actions if some corporation is involved in any way.

Being anti-corporation is fine, but let's get real here.

 

[turbo]

Nonsense. This is mainly the shopper's fault. They are the ones who decide to assault other shoppers. Wal-mart doesn't tell shoppers to bring pepper spray with them to the store. Wal-mart doesn't tell them to spray. I hate this ridiculous mentality that people can't be held responsible for their actions if some corporation is involved in any way.

Being anti-corporation is fine, but let's get real here.

I'm not anti-corporate. Inciting over-the-top behavior after gathering mobs for manufactured "deals" and manufactured "shortages" is standard operating procedure for the big stores. When people get hurt (WalMart employee killed last year as he tried to open the door, for instance) who is to blame? Individuals in the crowd, or the company that formed and fueled the mob? I can't remember ever getting trampled or pushed at any of the local mom and pop stores, ever. Can you? Big corporations that manufacture these mobs are responsible for people who are injured or killed, IMO.

 

[Pengwuino]

I'm not anti-corporate. Inciting over-the-top behavior after gathering mobs for manufactured "deals" and manufactured "shortages" is standard operating procedure for the big stores. When people get hurt (WalMart employee killed last year as he tried to open the door, for instance) who is to blame? Individuals in the crowd, or the company that formed and fueled the mob? I can't remember ever getting trampled or pushed at any of the local mom and pop stores, ever. Can you? Big corporations that manufacture these mobs are responsible for people who are injured or killed, IMO.

Akin to blaming gun manufacturers for when people get shot. A ridiculous argument. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

 

[chiro]

Akin to blaming gun manufacturers for when people get shot. A ridiculous argument. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

Maybe easy litigation and a society structured on passing the buck deemed it somewhat irrelevant, but I ask that question myself from time to time.

 

[wuliheron]

Yes, I should be able to buy a nuclear cruise missile and grenade launcher at Walmart. Its not the manufacturer's responsibility what I do with them and the law should not intervene unless I commit a crime. That would make for an interesting Black Friday sale...

 

[chiro]

Yes, I should be able to buy a nuclear cruise missile and grenade launcher at Walmart. Its not the manufacturer's responsibility what I do with them and the law should not intervene unless I commit a crime. That would make for an interesting Black Friday sale...

It isn't the manufacturers fault.

Lets look at alchohol and cigarettes. These kill how many people? They even put warning labels on the packets of cigarettes and people still die from them and they are a major leading cause of death.

The fact remains that people with enough money will have the capability to buy the things that you have mentioned.

Major drug cartels have acquired access to military weapons already and that has been demonstrated with existing heists.

Drugs don't kill people. Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

 

[Pengwuino]

Yes, I should be able to buy a nuclear cruise missile and grenade launcher at Walmart. Its not the manufacturer's responsibility what I do with them and the law should not intervene unless I commit a crime. That would make for an interesting Black Friday sale...

There are laws against buying nuclear missiles and grenade launchers at Wal-Mart. There are no laws against Wal-Mart having a sale on Thanskgiving night. The former is illegal because anyone buying a nuclear weapon or grenade launcher probably has some really horrible intent. The latter is legal because at a vast majority of stores, such a thing goes along nicely with 0 violence.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Akin to blaming gun manufacturers for when people get shot. A ridiculous argument. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

I didn't realize you are pro gun.

Crowd control is a responsibility. The same lesson was learned long ago wrt concerts.

What you are arguing is that the world should make more sense. Sorry.

 

[Drakkith]

I didn't realize you are pro gun.

Crowd control is a responsibility. The same lesson was learned long ago wrt concerts.

What you are arguing is that the world should make more sense. Sorry.

And if crowd control doesn't work? Then what? Who's fault is it? In the end it is, in my opinion of course, the individuals responsibility.

 

[wuliheron]

There are laws against buying nuclear missiles and grenade launchers at Wal-Mart. There are no laws against Wal-Mart having a sale on Thanskgiving night. The former is illegal because anyone buying a nuclear weapon or grenade launcher probably has some really horrible intent. The latter is legal because at a vast majority of stores, such a thing goes along nicely with 0 violence.

Intent has little to do with the issue. Possession is 9/10ths of the law, while intent is the last tenth and the hardest to prove. Walmart possesses sidewalks and if someone slips and falls on them because of their negligence they can be sued. The same with crowd control. There are laws stating clearly how many people can be allowed in the building at one time, how many exits can be locked, etc. in case of a fire. Walmart's intent doesn't figure into such laws and it doesn't matter in this case either.

What matters in each and every case is public safety. Not anyone's intent.

 

[rhody]

The Black Friday stampede scenario reminds me of an incident that happened to myself and three buddies long ago, just before large glass doors opened before a concert. The crowd surged anticipating the doors opening. The four of us were caught at first in the chaos, coming close to the glass. Someone, I forget who had the bright idea, interlock arms and squat down in a circle, which we did. The crowd surged around us but barely moved us because of our combined weight and friction to the ground. No one did break the glass that day, but it was close. Something to think about if you are ever in a small group in a compromised position at the whim of a surging mob. The technique worked well BTW. We were not helpless victims, just creative and resourceful.

Rhody...

 

[Borg]

WalMart should run a Black Friday sale on taser guns. That would be an interesting video.

 

[rhody]

WalMart should run a Black Friday sale on tazer guns. That would be an interesting video.

With a sign above the display that reads... "Taser wars... only the strong survive", along with a button that summons EMS.

Rhody...

 

[Borg]

With a sign above the display that reads... "Taser wars... only the strong survive", along with a button that summons EMS.

Rhody...

The botton has to be placed on the other side of a gauntlet of police officers with their own tasers though.

 

[wuliheron]

And the sprinkler system should be filled with pepper spray just in case the cops can't handle the situation. Gas masks will, of course, be sold on the opposite side of the store.

 

[Astronuc]

And the sprinkler system should be filled with pepper spray just in case the cops can't handle the situation. Gas masks will, of course, be sold on the opposite side of the store.

or tear gas.

 

[rootX]

WalMart, Target, Best Buy, etc, should be held fully responsible for personal injuries suffered during the frenzies that they whip up in the clueless. Terms like "doorbuster" are splashed all over the fliers that get inserted into our newspapers leading up to Black Friday. It's sad to see people all lathered up about the chance to buy some Chinese-made electronic junk. If they could only wait until after Christmas, they could get their junk even cheaper.

I would have agreed if this were a mob stampede. But rather this appears to be individual violence.

 

[KingNothing]

For what my opinion is worth, I believe stores *do* have some responsibility to implement extra security and crowd control, to a degree which the crowd can be predicted.

You can say "what happened to individual responsibility", and frankly, it's out the window as soon as you are unable to enforce it. And in situations with a huge mob of people, you just can't.

 

[BadBrain]

Not certain as to whether or not this is related, but...

http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/crime/providence-stabbing-at-walmart-on-silver-spring-street

Very sick!

 

[AlephZero]

You can say "what happened to individual responsibility", and frankly, it's out the window as soon as you are unable to enforce it. And in situations with a huge mob of people, you just can't.

That is arguing mob violence is OK but individual violence is not.

Of course you can take individual responsibility. Nothing was forcing anybody to be part of the mob, except their own personal greed.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You can say "what happened to individual responsibility", and frankly, it's out the window as soon as you are unable to enforce it. And in situations with a huge mob of people, you just can't.

I believe those who inflict violence could have either criminal or civil liability, or both, depending on their actions, and the stores have civil liability for failing to control the crowd. It's not an exclusive situation. Individuals are still responsible for their actions. But the stores are effectively yelling fire in a crowded theater [yelling Elmo in a nutty country?].

It is illegal to incite a mob, which is effectively the result of these rush sales.

 

[turbo]

I believe those who inflict violence could have either criminal or civil liability, or both, depending on their actions, and the stores have civil liability for failing to control the crowd. It's not an exclusive situation. Individuals are still responsible for their actions. But the stores are effectively yelling fire in a crowded theater [yelling Elmo in a nutty country?].

It is illegal to incite a mob, which is effectively the result of these rush sales.

Quoting ridiculously low prices (loss-leaders) on a very limited supply of inventory is the stock-in-trade of these big businesses. Yes, they get a crush of customers that way, but they also generate aggressive behaviors in the greedy and the clueless. Legally, these sales are probably on a par with "attractive nuisance" lawsuits in which a homeowner doesn't properly enclose a swimming pool so a child drowns, or otherwise engages in negligent behavior. The big-box stores are far more than negligent, IMO. They create these conditions intentionally as a part of their business plan, and they seem to be able to fly under the radar when people are injured or killed.

 

[dlgoff]

I just had a thought (probably not the right thing to do now days). But why not let them duke it out? Winner takes all. Or at least the opponent surrenders. Maybe a good show plus good sales.

 

[rhody]

I just had a thought (probably not the right thing to do now days). But why not let them duke it out? Winner takes all. Or at least the opponent surrenders. Maybe a good show plus good sales.

Oh God, another freaking reality show, Occupy my goodies !

Rhody...

P.S. I just watched the PBS special on Lucille Ball's life and was left feeling sort of sad, what the hell has happened to us as a society.

 

[dlgoff]

Oh God, another freaking reality show, Occupy my goodies !.

Just trying to make your day.

 

[turbo]

I just had a thought (probably not the right thing to do now days). But why not let them duke it out? Winner takes all. Or at least the opponent surrenders. Maybe a good show plus good sales.

Black Friday Death Match!

 

[rhody]

I thought I would post what I bought, the skis, very nice just spent time peeling labels, price tags off them, they are dual wood core,
so they should last longer than the foam core ones, pretty light and decent looking as well, almost matches the color scheme on my
beast of a bike, who would have guessed.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1430/volklskis.jpg

Rhody...

 

[KingNothing]

That is arguing mob violence is OK but individual violence is not.

Nope, it isn't. I'm simply saying that its pointless to use "individual responsibility" as a means to improve the situation, because you can't enforce it.

I'm not saying people aren't responsible as individuals on some moral level, but that doesn't exactly change the situation because frankly not everyone has moral barriers like you and I, and when you combine that with the mob situation where it is nearly impossible to police...

Basically, I'm saying that in the spirit of coming up with a safer way to do black friday, I haven't heard a better option than making the stores responsible.

 

[KingNothing]

I thought I would post what I bought, the skis, very nice just spent time peeling labels, price tags off them, they are dual wood core,
so they should last longer than the foam core ones, pretty light and decent looking as well, almost matches the color scheme on my
beast of a bike, who would have guessed.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1430/volklskis.jpg

Rhody...

Those are beautiful. I love how they are sleek-and-sexy, rather than the busy, in-your-face modern style of skis that you see a lot.

 

[rhody]

Post Black Friday, Best Buy resorts and (succeeds) sinking to a new low, nice...

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-22/best-buy-cancels-some-online-orders-after-hot-items-sell-out.html

Dec. 22 (Bloomberg) -- Best Buy Co., the world’s largest consumer-electronics retailer, canceled some customers’ online orders after it ran out of popular merchandise.

“Overwhelming demand of hot product offerings” on BestBuy.com led to the cancellations, Lisa Hawks, a spokeswoman for the Richfield, Minnesota-based retailer, said today in an e-mail. She declined to disclose the number of orders that won’t be filled or identify the items.

The canceled orders covered the weekend after Thanksgiving, when Best Buy stepped up discounts against Amazon.com Inc. and Wal-Mart Stores Inc. Best Buy promoted “aggressively online,” leading to higher traffic and an increase in sales by stores open at least 14 months,

Rhody...

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I believe those who inflict violence could have either criminal or civil liability, or both, depending on their actions, and the stores have civil liability for failing to control the crowd. It's not an exclusive situation. Individuals are still responsible for their actions. But the stores are effectively yelling fire in a crowded theater [yelling Elmo in a nutty country?].

It is illegal to incite a mob, which is effectively the result of these rush sales.

Yelling "fire" in a crowded place is easily considered by the average person likely to cause a panic and stampede. "Half off xboxs" generally is not considered likely to produce the "Get my pepper spray, we're goin shoppin!" response.

 

[xxChrisxx]

"Half off xboxs" generally is not considered likely to produce the "Get my pepper spray, we're goin shoppin!" response.

Half off an expensive prouct, that my son would enjoy this for Chirstmas and would... love mE... more a... WAIT, WHAT, ONLY FOUR LEFT IN THE STORE... wAiT i w4NT ONWEEeeE, NN3ED ThiS N0wWW"""""""""""""!'Frenzy.

 

[xxChrisxx]

People are purposely and deliberately whipped into a state where they are not acting rationally, by aggressive marketing. (Mania probably isn't too far from the real scenario)

Adverts leading up to the Christmas period are designed to implant not just the want but the NEED! for product X. It's a slow and insidious, but the suggestion is non the less implanted.
Cue, a 'sale'. Everyone loves a bargin, and it gets people out to the shops.
Cue, 'while stocks last' 'finishing soon'. Even if there is a warehouse full. This creates an impending sense of dread of 'missing out'.

The whole process is designed to make the purchasing decision a purely emotional process.

As some people are easy to manipulate emotionally, and some are bordering on unstable. You get the result of people who pepper spray others, but aren't rational at the time they act.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Typically to be charged with having incited a riot one must have intentionally done something that a reasonable person would consider likely to have produced the result. If I say or do something that is not going to cause the average person to flip their lid and yet wind up with some unstable person flipping their lid it is not my fault.

Now do you think that you can show a statistical correlation between these sorts of sales events and such behavior?

Just a couple months ago a guy at the bar next to my place got upset and pepper sprayed a groups of people outside the bar. Wasn't on the news.

But what about what is in the news?
Woman sprays cleaner in the ice cream man's face.
http://www.kplctv.com/story/16374768/road-rage-results-in-pepper-spraying
http://www.goupstate.com/article/20111222/articles/111229915
http://www.news-mail.com.au/story/2011/12/12/patrons-cop-pepper-spray-sugarland-tavern/
People in McDonalds pepper sprayed over "harassment".
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/12/05/ottawa-pepper-spray-bus_n_1129414.html

Apparently it is not terribly unusual for people to flip out and pepper spray people in our normal day to day world. I considered looking up pepper spray assault statistics but it would likely include persons using pepper spray in the commission of a crime such as robbery. I specifically left out those sorts of stories (of which there were many) and I also specifically looked for pepper spray stories rather than just general assault. I am sure we could find plenty of instances of people getting in fist fights over stupid things or hitting people with their cars.

So tell me... in the face of several stories about people pepper spraying others because they were upset or perhaps just plain crazy can you really tell me that on a day when large numbers of people are packing into thousands of stores all over the country you are surprised that some of them were emotionally unstable and assaulted others for apparently trifling reasons?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yelling "fire" in a crowded place is easily considered by the average person likely to cause a panic and stampede. "Half off xboxs" generally is not considered likely to produce the "Get my pepper spray, we're goin shoppin!" response.

Last year one man was trampled to death by a shopping crowd rushing out of control. This isn't just about pepper spray.