Physics BS in Physics and absolutely no luck getting an entry level job

[Vanadium 50]

There is no honest data to support the argument that STEM is in demand(excluding engineering).

One cannot answer this without being accused of dishonesty, but:

Majors with higher than average unemployment rates for new graduates: architecture, humanities & liberal arts, arts
Majors with average unemployment rates for new graduates: social science,
Majors with lower unemployment rates for new graduates: agriculture & natural resources, science/life-physical, communications & journalism, computers & mathematics, education, engineering, law & public policy, health, psychology & social work, recreation, business.

 

[clope023]

Okay - you've got me. It's all a big scam designed to cheat unsuspecting high school students into thinking that by studying quantum mechanics book they'll be qualified as professional engineers. /sarcasm

That fact of the matter is that people can complain about it all they want, but that's not going to change anything. It's not going to help the original poster with his or her job hunt. Physics degrees are going to cover the same core curriculum because they have to. The curriculum will update as the field and the tools in it change, but undergraduate physics itself is not going to become a profession any time soon.

For someone trying to take advantage of the education they have for employment purposes, it's better to understand how "the system" works and why it is the way is than to foster malice through continued complaint. If you want to argue that there are opportunities for physics programs to improve employability of their graduates - that's a great discussion to have in another thread.

No one is saying physics departments should stop teaching mechanics, E&M, thermo, or quantum so it becomes more akin to a professional degree; that's a straw man.

What is being argued is that departments allow for more practical dedicated electives that students could choose from along with the more standard/traditional curriculum; electives such as electronics, programming, scientific computing and numerical analysis, LabVIEW for data acquisition, among other things. These would be applicable to both people going into experimental physics for grad school and those who would seek employment after undergrad, things like scientific computing, programming, and numerical analysis would obviously benefit theorists as well.

I'm sorry but anyone who can say with a straight face that that is unreasonable and is turning a physics degree into something it's not is just wrong any way you slice it.

 

[Dr_Zinj]

Join the military. You have a degree, so any of the services Officer Training Courses should be open to you, provided you don't have any felonies, are healthy, and are an American citizen, and under 28 years old. That gets your foot in the door for management positions. Enlistment is a secondary option, and the added benefit of training you in a job, with the possibility of leapfrogging a couple of ranks, and being a stepping stone to an officer's commission later. Some of the services may even forgive your student loans! At the very least, they'll be paying you, you'll be gaining experience in something, and you have the luxury of being able to decide what you really want to do with your life when you grow up. (Some of us are nearing retirement and still don't know that!)

 

[MarneMath]

I fundamentally disagree with the advice Dr_Zinj has provided. The military should never be the resort for someone who is simply trying to find a job. If the person is patient than I'm sure the individual will find some meaningful work eventually, even if it requires more schooling. Secondly, you make it sound like it's "easy" to just become an officer. Officer positions for any branch are highly competitive and require typically a year long process and occasionally multiple attempts. Furthermore, without a solid reason as to why one wants to be an officer, the odds of passing the selection board are slim. Lastly, as a prior service infantryman, I can say that enlisting is not for the faint of heart. Basic training sucks, life as a private sucks, deployments suck, pt sucks, a lot of the military sucks, but I did it for ten years because I loved my job and I loved my soldiers. Without that same passion or without a direct end goal, I've seen far to many good kids fall into depression due to the strict lifestyle and harsh working conditions the military places on individuals.

So I say this again, the military is great, for those who wish to serve for one reason or another, but it is NOT a backup choice. It will require 4 years of dedicated services that there is no escape from.

 

[votingmachine]

An unusual job a friend of mine has is in accident reconstruction. Basically it is measuring and calculating around accidents to establish the facts and interpretations for any legal proceedings. I don't know how to find that, but everywhere has a constant stream of accidents. Maybe ask a lawyer who they use as consultants and contact them. It is as much about the legal writing as about the physics of the accidents, but knowing what a long skid mark means is a big part of it.

That is a pretty random one, but physics shows up in a lot of arenas. Good luck.

 

[Locrian]

Okay - you've got me. It's all a big scam designed to cheat unsuspecting high school students into thinking that by studying quantum mechanics book they'll be qualified as professional engineers. /sarcasm

I don't think it's a scam, though I do think many physics programs could use many improvements. I think your message and the message coming from many universities don't connect well. I also think the sarcasm doesn't serve you well here.

Physics degrees are going to cover the same core curriculum because they have to. The curriculum will update as the field and the tools in it change, but undergraduate physics itself is not going to become a profession any time soon.

I'm not claiming it can or should become a profession.

If you want to argue that there are opportunities for physics programs to improve employability of their graduates - that's a great discussion to have in another thread.

Discussing how physics programs could improve is a natural extension of the discussion of how new grads ended up where they are now. It's well within reasonable scope of the OP's post, I'm not going to stop having that discussion because you don't like it.

After all, there could be potential future physics students reading, and they deserve several perspectives on the issues.

 

[StatGuy2000]

From what I have gathered in this thread, the discussions/disagreements between Locrian, Choppy, and clope23 boils down to a fundamental philosophical question: what is the purpose of a university education? (more specifically, what is the purpose of an undergraduate physics education)

Is the purpose of a university education to provide a training and background to prepare the students for the workforce? Or is the purpose to provide an education that broadens the horizon and explore knowledge for its own sake?

In my mind, an undergraduate physics degree (much like other undergraduate science degrees and an undergraduate math degree) has the primary purpose of setting the foundation for the understanding of the subject. Students can thus build on that foundation to pursue either further graduate education (in physics or in some other cognate field) or to pursue additional training that can be deemed more marketable. It is not, nor has it ever been, a "vocational" program whose primary purpose is to train students for the workforce. Of course, students graduating from a physics program would (or should) get an education that will provide students with skills that should be marketable or employable (e.g. analytical/modelling skill, software skills, analyzing experimental data, etc.) but that is a byproduct, not the purpose. The exact same argument can be made for a math degree.

On the one hand, I do understand and can recognize the need for physics departments to do a better job to prepare their students to develop marketable skills to give them a "leg up" in terms of finding employment (either at the undergraduate or at the graduate level) -- whether that be through co-op or internship programs, requiring students to better acquire programming skills, acquire better communication/writing skills, etc. Such a thing does not take away from learning the fundamentals of physics.

At the same time, is it really all that difficult for physics students to be able to develop these skills on their own? In my alma mater, physics programs are quite flexible, with plenty of room for students to take electives. Shouldn't we encourage students to take elective courses that enhance their marketability? As an example, I know many students who have double-majored in physics & computer science (or majored in physics & minored in computer science) who have had no problems finding employment in software development. I've also known physics graduates who have used their undergraduate background to pursue programs such as law, medicine, or accounting/business. So this notion that physics degrees somehow cripple their graduates from finding employment opportunities just does not jibe with my experience or the experiences of my fellow cohort. Physics degrees (and math degrees) are as employable or as unemployable as the students who tailor their programs.

 

[micromass]

Physics degrees (and math degrees) are as employable or as unemployable as the students who tailor their programs.

Quoted for truth.

If you spend your entire undergrad degree focusing on the atmosphere on exoplanets, then you shouldn't be surprised you'll have difficulties finding a job. If you took some effort to take some applicable courses however, then it really shouldn't be too difficult for you. It doesn't even need to be that much: a knowledge of several programming courses could already do the job. And even if your goal is grad school, a knowledge of programming can only be beneficial!

 

[Crek]

If the majority of graduates will not be getting a PhD and the degree is not employable, it begs the question - what is the point of formal study? The point of a degree is getting qualifications, if the qualifications don't have value what's the point? May as well self study.

 

[StatGuy2000]

If the majority of graduates will not be getting a PhD and the degree is not employable, it begs the question - what is the point of formal study? The point of a degree is getting qualifications, if the qualifications don't have value what's the point? May as well self study.

You are precisely missing the point -- the point of a degree is not primarily about getting qualifications. The point of a degree is to provide an education, a foundation to which you or others build upon -- the qualifications are a byproduct.

Again, you're assuming that a given degree has value or it doesn't, but you neglect to note that the value of a graduate is not solely based on his/her degree -- it's what he/she does with her education that matters. So a physics degree can be valuable to one student but not to another. What's the difference? What he/she has done during that time. Did he/she pursue an internship or research opportunities while he/she was in school? What skills did he/she acquire? What activities was he/she involved in? etc. etc. etc.

 

[Crek]

The point of a degree is qualifications, it's the only distinction between formal and informal study. If qualifications are not gained with some type of value there is no reason to formally study the subject, you can get as much by sitting at home reading a book and working problems. An education can be gotten outside the university, the only advantage university has is certification.

 

[micromass]

The point of a degree is qualifications, it's the only distinction between formal and informal study. If qualifications are not gained with some type of value there is no reason to formally study the subject, you can get as much by sitting at home reading a book and working problems. An education can be gotten outside the university, the only advantage university has is certification.

Studying something at home is hard. Very few people are able to do it. And many do it wrong.

 

[TheNoobie001]

I am just now starting my 4 year ride of a B.S. with a double major in Physics & Mathematics. I fully expect to go to graduate school after my B.S. in either Mathematics, pursuing mathematical physics, maybe mathematical astrophysics, or Physics pursuing some type of applied physics, experimental type work.

I know those are very far apart from one another in regards to the type of work that will be done but either way I would be happy. I have spent the last decade working offshore in the commercial diving industry and I have used very basic physics formulas to account for certain things like explaining loss of volume for reclaimed gas, calculating breathing mixtures.. and so on.. But I have also used those same formulas and applied them in the real world where people's life is at stake.

I find your post interesting because I feel that I would not have a problem getting a job after a B.S. simply because I have real world experience, but only time will tell in that regard... I also plan on taking my FE exam once I achieve my B.S. just to have it so that I am more appealing to employers.

I heard recently, from a neighbor who's daughter is in or just completed her Masters Engineering program that you can sit the FE and PE exam at the same time, but your PE licensure will not kick in until a required amount of time has elapsed. From what I understood they are doing this because it is more difficult for people to go back and sit the PE exam after being out of school so long, even though they are more than qualified in their fields.

Have you tried the USAJOBS website?? https://www.usajobs.gov They have a bunch of jobs all over and could be another useful resource in your job search.

 

[MarneMath]

If the majority of graduates will not be getting a PhD and the degree is not employable, it begs the question - what is the point of formal study? The point of a degree is getting qualifications, if the qualifications don't have value what's the point? May as well self study.

I would argue that the physics degree has a specific value and that's to prepare students for graduate level physics. If your end goal is to NOT go into graduate school, then it's more wise to choose a different degree than to try to force an entire academic department to mold around you. Whenever I give career/academic advice to young students, I often pose the question: "What do you want to do job wise?" If you want to research AI, go to Comp Sci, if you want to build robots go to engineering, if you want to go into finance study math and economics, but if you want to research physics, then study physics.

Often times, I run into people who say, "physics is so interesting!" That's great! I find history to be interesting, but I also knew that I wouldn't get a job doing "history". So why do people feel that by studying physics, they should get a job doing "physics"? The best thing a young person should do is find a list of careers that interest them and ASK people who have been there what path they took to get there. I call these coffee meetings. I know for myself personally, if a senior in high school emailed me, I never have turned them done for a 30 minute coffee meet up to give them academic and career advice. In my own experience, I've only rarely got rejected for a coffee meet up.

 

[Choppy]

What is being argued is that departments allow for more practical dedicated electives that students could choose from along with the more standard/traditional curriculum; electives such as electronics, programming, scientific computing and numerical analysis, LabVIEW for data acquisition, among other things. These would be applicable to both people going into experimental physics for grad school and those who would seek employment after undergrad, things like scientific computing, programming, and numerical analysis would obviously benefit theorists as well.

What physics programs do not currently allow for electives in electronics, programming, scientific computing, numerical analysis, LabVIEW, etc.?
Of course it's a good idea for physics departments to allow for these things and incorporate them into their programs.

And I think we agree that physics programs should constantly strive for improvement.

To keep my points in context I have been responding to this initial assertion:

Considering that completion of BS degrees nowadays is essentially technical in purpose(to get a job) most departments have done a terrible job keeping relevancy.

This is incorrect on two accounts.

First, the purpose of a non-professional undergraduate degree is to provide an education in that field. It cannot be for vocational training because there is no vocation to provide training for (outside of academia). If you orient the degree to train the student for a specific profession such as engineering - it becomes an engineering degree. If you want a hybrid program that covers the core physics curriculum, but also qualifies the graduates as engineers, it becomes an engineering physics degree. But if you take an honours physics program and opt to specialize in astrophysics by taking courses in stellar evolution and introductory cosmology, it's not reasonable to expect that to translate into direct qualifications in the commercial sector because there just aren't that many companies that provide those things as services. What that means is that ultimately if the student chooses this route, it's up to the student to do the translation.

Second, most physics departments have not "done a terrible job keeping relevancy." The data indicates that on average physics graduates do quite well when they go on to seek employment outside of academia. They have low unemployment rates, their starting salaries are comparable to those of engineers, and they have high job satisfaction. (For references see AIP Physics Bachelor's Initial Employment, or APS White Paper on Economics of a Physics Education.) And it's not like universities just teach their students and don't care about what happens when they graduate. As I've said previously that's why universities have job fairs, coop programs, internships, career offices, etc. Many even have programs to promote the jump from research to commercialization of ideas. Universities are dripping with opportunities to gain real world work experience.

 

[eltodesukane]

My neighbor has a BS in Physics, and the only job he ever found was part-time overnight stocker at WalMart, and then part-time overnight janitor in a residence for old people. Sad.

 

[trikkydik]

Don't listen to the neigh Sayers.
The outcome of your situation depends on you. I can't believe how negative this community is.
A physics degree applies to a broad range of technical fields.
I'm a former navy nuclear engineer so I know what I'm talking about.
Not like the idiots before me who just want to say whatever moronic ideas come to their finger tips.
The best advice I can give right now is
IGNORE THE NEGATIVE POSTS. They are clearly too ignorant to understand the situation.

 

[StatGuy2000]

My neighbor has a BS in Physics, and the only job he ever found was part-time overnight stocker at WalMart, and then part-time overnight janitor in a residence for old people. Sad.

eltodesukane, the problem with such anecdotes is that you don't necessarily know the full story. Do you know how well your neighbour achieved academically? After all, he may have a BS in physics, but his GPA may be low. Do you know if he ever pursued internship or research experience or otherwise sought any other type of work experience while studying? Did he take any marketable electives? Does he have any programming skills?

Because you're making the assumption that his BS in physics was useless because he could only find a job in part-time low-wage work, but you don't know about the other factors above I've mentioned.

 

[clope023]

My neighbor has a BS in Physics, and the only job he ever found was part-time overnight stocker at WalMart, and then part-time overnight janitor in a residence for old people. Sad.

Degrees are necessary but not sufficient conditions to getting jobs in today's market; an engineering student could end up the exact same way.

 

[Crek]

OP, if it's not clear at this point - physics is a deadend career wise(short of getting a PhD). Probably the best bet you have is getting a masters degree in something in demand(I suspect this is a reason a substantial number of physics graduates go onto graduate school).

Alternatively you could take the actuary exams.

 

[Chuckinmaine]

Go to a post office and track down the federal register pf jobs (or do it on line). Check out radiation control technician (Health physics technician). When I entered the program (1985) it took a year's training plus a year's probationary status to become an "A" qualified RCT (RadCon Tech as they are called in DoD). It's an interesting and well paid job, but it is not for everyone. Every four months a percentage of randomly selected RCTs are sent to a no-notice written exam or mock-up that takes from two to four hours to complete. Fail and you loose your qualifications. Fail more than once and you can be dropped from the program. The job is radiation control, health physics,and radioactive material handling where masses of regulation meet real world maintenance of nuclear systems in real time. Of the 16 people in my training group, 8 graduated from training and only five were left after a year. Some got transfers to other jobs in DoD or the shipyards, others were dropped. Work locations include anywhere the navy repairs nuclear powered ships. You will also need to pass a full background check to get a security clearance, so if you do drugs don't bother to apply.
Good Luck.

 

[VoloD]

I have seen physics graduates choose to become K-12 teachers. I have seen physics graduates who actually work in oil and gas industry. There are a strong number of physics graduates who leave off to pursue careers in medicine or law. Some people even have the heart to pursue that elusive PhD and find applied employment outside of academia (which happens more often than people think). It really depends on what you make of it.