Calculation of work (P.dV) in an isothermal system

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of work done by an ideal gas in an isothermal process, specifically examining the treatment of pressure and volume as functions of position in a container with a movable piston. Participants explore the implications of treating pressure as constant over an infinitesimal displacement and the mathematical justification for this approach.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the standard calculation of work done in an isothermal process using the ideal gas law and questions the treatment of pressure as constant when it is a function of position.
  • Another participant asserts that integrating -VdP yields the same result as integrating PdV, suggesting that the relationship holds regardless of the treatment of pressure.
  • A third participant notes that in calculus, functions of x are typically treated as constant over an infinitesimal displacement dx, implying a standard practice in mathematical analysis.
  • A later reply seeks a rigorous mathematical explanation for why functions can be treated as constant over an infinitesimal range, acknowledging that while they do change, the extent of change may be negligible.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the treatment of pressure as constant during infinitesimal changes, with some supporting the standard approach and others questioning its validity. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the justification for treating pressure as constant in this context.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the dependence on the definitions of pressure and volume as functions of position, and the implications of calculus in the context of infinitesimal changes. There is an acknowledgment of the limitations in rigorously justifying the treatment of these variables as constant.

metalrose
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Here's the textbook way of calculating the work done by an ideal gas in an isothermal case.

PV=nRT
P.dV=(nRT/V).dV
∴ ∫P.dV=nRT∫dV/V
→ W2-W1=nRT*ln(V2/V1)

My question.
Consider a cylindrical (or of any other shape) container of surface area A and a frictionless movable piston attached.
Let the coordinate x run along the length of this container, with origin at the bottom of the container.
Let the piston be at some x at some point of time.

At this x, P.V= constant = nRT
This holds for all x.
Now since V(x)=A.x
P(x)=constant/A.x=K/x ... for some contant k (=nRT/A)

Now P and V are both functions of x.
While calculating the infinitesimal work P.dV, how can we treat P(x) constant over the range dx?

Instead, since P(x)V(x)=constant
differentiating both sides, d[P(x)V(x)]=0
→ V(x).dP + P(x).dV=0
∴ P(x).dV= -V(x).dP

Shouldn't this relation hold?

I ask this because I was solving a similar problem, although which wasn't isothermal, involved P and V that depended on x and the approach used there was the second one.
 
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The relationship holds and if you integrate -VdP instead of pdV you get the same result, don't you?
I am not sure what is the question...
 
Usually, in calculus, functions of x are taken as being constant along any differential displacement dx.
 
DaTario said:
Usually, in calculus, functions of x are taken as being constant along any differential displacement dx.

Any rigorous mathematical explanation you could point me to? I know that if dx is infinitesimally small, f(x) will not change much in dx, but it will change neverthless. So i am looking for a rigorous mathematical explanation of why we can treat it as constant.
 

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