Schools Can we talk about graduate school?

[tolove]

I've decided on going back to school for a physics degree. I want to know it, and there's nothing else out there that I'm as interested in. But school isn't for pleasure, it's for getting a job. A 4-year in physics alone, from what I've been reading, is about as good as any other degree. It'll look nice, but get you very little by itself.

Now, for graduate school.. help?

What degrees are currently in demand? What degrees could I cross over into with a physics BS? Where are good places to find internships (Virginia)?

 

[micromass]

If you want to get a good job easily, then you might want to think of an engineering degree. For example, Electrical Engineering or Mechanical Engineering degrees are very employable/ They have a significant overlap with physics, so a double major in physics and engineering is certainly doable.

 

[Choppy]

It's worth mentioning now that university and particularly academic programs like physics do NOT exist "for getting a job." They're for giving you an education.

If you want job training, you have to look at either professional programs (engineering, medicine, etc.) or to a community college.

 

[tolove]

It's worth mentioning now that university and particularly academic programs like physics do NOT exist "for getting a job." They're for giving you an education.

If you want job training, you have to look at either professional programs (engineering, medicine, etc.) or to a community college.

I don't think anyone goes in paying 20k+ a year just so they can "get an education," but thanks for being overly pessimistic for me today.

Welcome back anytime

 

[jimmyly]

I don't think anyone goes in paying 20k+ a year just so they can "get an education," but thanks for being overly pessimistic for me today.

Welcome back anytime

i have to disagree with you. i go to school for the fun and to learn. i am planning on spending 20k+ just for an education and because i enjoy it.

everyone going into physics KNOWS that it won't bring nice cars, nice clothes,a giant house, or a big bank account. i do it because i love it and doing anything else would be a waste of time.

please refrain from making statements like university is to get a job and no one goes to school just for knowledge. No, university is for learning. people hire university graduates for their knowledge.

if you think no one would pay 20+ k just for knowledge you are ignorant. i played hockey all my life and payed well over 20k because i love it.

the same way as i am going to pay for knowledge because that's what is important to me in life

 

[Angry Citizen]

i have to disagree with you. i go to school for the fun and to learn. i am planning on spending 20k+ just for an education and because i enjoy it.

everyone going into physics KNOWS that it won't bring nice cars, nice clothes,a giant house, or a big bank account. i do it because i love it and doing anything else would be a waste of time.

please refrain from making statements like university is to get a job and no one goes to school just for knowledge. No, university is for learning. people hire university graduates for their knowledge.

if you think no one would pay 20+ k just for knowledge you are ignorant. i played hockey all my life and payed well over 20k because i love it.

the same way as i am going to pay for knowledge because that's what is important to me in life

The vast majority of people cannot hope to pay for that without significant assistance from their parents, or a job waiting for them at the end.

OP: Consider engineering, most definitely. Some engineers are heavily into physics, although not the kind of physics that a physicist would explore. Orbital trajectory designers are my favorite example: most of the things they do are physics. It's just hell-and-gone from the kind of physics you'd see as a physicist.

 

[jimmyly]

and to add to that. Just because you have a degree it guarantees nothing. so asking what degree is in high demand doesn't mean anything. i got a job over people who graduated with degrees for a nutrition job straight out of high school.
i got it over people with nutritional science degrees, kinesiology degrees, and others.

so... is university for getting a job? it willhelp but no guarantees. if you chase things in "high demand" now, it may not be tomorrow. if you do what you love and your damn good at it. you will be happy

 

[jimmyly]

The vast majority of people cannot hope to pay for that without significant assistance from their parents, or a job waiting for them at the end.

OP: Consider engineering, most definitely. Some engineers are heavily into physics, although not the kind of physics that a physicist would explore. Orbital trajectory designers are my favorite example: most of the things they do are physics. It's just hell-and-gone from the kind of physics you'd see as a physicist.

yes, but my point is that a lot of people DO go to university for the education.

 

[dkotschessaa]

The advisor to our physics club told me he thinks it's very sad that people consider education to be for job training, and not for enlightenment.

-Dave K

 

[jimmyly]

The advisor to our physics club told me he thinks it's very sad that people consider education to be for job training, and not for enlightenment.

-Dave K

i agree with your advisor completely.

 

[Locrian]

I don't think anyone goes in paying 20k+ a year just so they can "get an education,"

Why not? They pay for all kinds of silly things, why not that one? In any case a physics Masters or PhD shouldn't cost $20k, it should cost roughly $0. (I agree the BS will cost, but I thought the thread was about grad school).

If you're careful about what area you study, are geographically flexible, are very good in both school work and lab work, and have a bit of luck on your side, I really believe you can earn a great living with a Masters or PhD in physics.

Go into the wrong area and your education will have been worth very little.

Good luck!

 

[tolove]

The advisor to our physics club told me he thinks it's very sad that people consider education to be for job training, and not for enlightenment.

-Dave K

I was a bit cynical in my original post, I will admit. I'm going to study this even if it means I work out of field, just because the subject is amazing. But at the same time, it's expensive! I will have to recoup my losses, and I'd rather be in a better position afterwords.


May I ask about teaching? How do you guys feel about it? I don't see it mentioned too often on here (I haven't been around long, though). There are lots of teaching jobs out there, no?

Best case scenario-- I'm a genius and didn't know it, land a research job
Middle case scenarios-- I find an interesting job in a related field.
Worst case scenario-- I teach. Heck, teaching isn't that bad, I could live and be happy with this too.

 

[tolove]

Why not? They pay for all kinds of silly things, why not that one? In any case a physics Masters or PhD shouldn't cost $20k, it should cost roughly $0. (I agree the BS will cost, but I thought the thread was about grad school).

If you're careful about what area you study, are geographically flexible, are very good in both school work and lab work, and have a bit of luck on your side, I really believe you can earn a great living with a Masters or PhD in physics.

Go into the wrong area and your education will have been worth very little.

Good luck!

Graduate school should be free? Are scholarships really that easy to come by?

One of my biggest worries about going to grad school is whether or not I'll be able to afford it. I'm sure there are guides everywhere on here for finding scholarships, I'll look around. Thanks for the ease of mind.

 

[Catria]

As far as graduate school is concerned, inquire about the funding level provided to students enrolled in that graduate program beforehand (unless the program is in a school like UBC, where funding is made clear enough to prospective graduate students so that they can plan their graduate studies around it)

There really are grad schools that would cost nothing out of your own pocket since these grad schools are fully funded.

 

[ModusPwnd]

"There are lots of teaching jobs out there, no?"

I wouldn't say so. Teach for America could find a spot for you. Otherwise many districts are putting teachers on furlough and letting them retire without re-hiring. Teaching jobs are out there, but there is not lots. Of my undergrad cohort 3 of them ended up doing Teach for America.

 

[ZombieFeynman]

Graduate school should be free? Are scholarships really that easy to come by?

One of my biggest worries about going to grad school is whether or not I'll be able to afford it. I'm sure there are guides everywhere on here for finding scholarships, I'll look around. Thanks for the ease of mind.

If you're looking at graduate schools in America and you have:

A GPA over 3.33 (equivalent to American System)
A PGRE score > 40 percentile
Research experience of any sort
and solid letters of recommendation corroborating you're not a complete moron

Look forward to getting a fully funded PhD somewhere.

(Your experiences may vary)(Don't commit felonies: this seriously hurts your chances)

 

[SMHPhysics]

This is wrong. If money is all that people want to think about these days, I honestly don't stand for it. I'm planning to double major in math and physics, neither of which may get me much money in life, but it's passion and an enjoyment for the subject that move me. Money invested in education is not money wasted. I'll give you an idea what's wasted money: big mansion, racing cars, wine, beer etc...

 

[ModusPwnd]

Easy to say... But if you don't get a career out of it and make no more after than you did before that is easily seen as money, and time, wasted. Its fun and fulfilling to know some relativity and quantum. But without a career to pay for it most people would not attempt it. Money isn't everything, but it is something.

 

[Jorriss]

Easy to say... But if you don't get a career out of it and make no more after than you did before that is easily seen as money, and time, wasted. Its fun and fulfilling to know some relativity and quantum. But without a career to pay for it most people would not attempt it. Money isn't everything, but it is something.

Which is fair, but for many of us school was all about pleasure, if only because of our ignorance (my ignorance) of any real world concerns.

 

[Bipolarity]

The view to college should be a balance of both financial and personal considerations. This will be different for each person, but eventually once must draw a line between money and the other things if one is to make a decision consistent with one's beliefs.

For instance, if you are an international student looking to eventually immigrate to a developed country, you need a job and sponsorship in that country. This is much easier to do with engineering than with a subject like Archaeology. All the int'l students I know have moved back to their country if their major was not in engineering/mathematics/computer science/economics. The math degree becomes heavily employable when combned with either economics or computer science (idk about physics).

This is certainly true of the US and Japan; to my knowledge the immigration laws in these countries are much more lenient towards workers in high-skill occupations, i.e. engineering/CS/financial analyst. My guess extrapolates this to other developed countries.

Another example, I have a friend who is doing computer engineering. He does not even like studying; if he could do what he spontaneously wanted to do, it would be video games, but those really don't earn you anything He was hardworking enough to scrape through the graduation and secure a modest entry level job. Why did he pick engineering?

One of the reasons was that his little brother had a passion of being a doctor. Becoming a doctor is very expensive in the US. The older brother took the decision of majoring in engineering so he could pay (at least in part) for his younger brother's expenses in medical school. The younger brother, unlike the older, is deeply passionate about medicine. To be frank the older brother doesn't care what he majored in, as long as it payed enough for his younger brother's needs.

You don't have to major in the subject you spontaneously love the most. It just's that you need to make the decision so that you don't regret it afterwards, and since few people can advice others on the future, the gut feeling is also important in these matters, since few people know you better than yourself.

This is all coming from someone who *almost* majored in math, but ended up majoring in EE. In my free time I read books on stuff like real analysis and cryptography, so I still *love* math, but have decided *not* to make it a part of my career, in much the same was Einstein did not consider violin to be a part of his career.

BiP

 

[ParticleGrl]

everyone going into physics KNOWS that it won't bring nice cars, nice clothes,a giant house, or a big bank account. i do it because i love it and doing anything else would be a waste of time.

Right after you talk about how you aren't studying to gt a job, you suggest you are "going into physics." Studying physics is NOT going into physics- more likely than not its going into IT,finance, insurance,etc. You should do what you love, but it helps to think longer term than "right now." i.e. if you would be happier in engineering than in insurance, you should probably major in engineering and not physics.

The advisor to our physics club told me he thinks it's very sad that people consider education to be for job training, and not for enlightenment.

If the advisor to your physics club is a physics professor, he didn't follow his own advice. For him college and graduate school WERE job training. Beware people who are giving advice they wouldn't follow themselves.

Best case scenario-- I'm a genius and didn't know it, land a research job
Middle case scenarios-- I find an interesting job in a related field.
Worst case scenario-- I teach. Heck, teaching isn't that bad, I could live and be happy with this too.

I think you have a distorted picture. Most physics phds leave science in general (and work in finance,IT,insurance,programming,etc) after the phd+some postdocs, so your middle case scenario is pretty unlikely unless your definition of related field is different than mine.

As to your worst case scenario- there aren't very many full-time teaching positions. At the college level, teaching duties are increasingly being taken up by adjuncts, and these aren't full-time positions (its hard to get a full load of classes. and even if you do you only make 20-30k a year, no benefits).

At the high school level- you have to convince a cash strapped district to hire someone who 1. is in the highest pay bracket (phd) and 2. has no high school teaching experience. Its a tough sell.

 

[DrummingAtom]

I don't think anyone goes in paying 20k+ a year just so they can "get an education," but thanks for being overly pessimistic for me today.

Welcome back anytime

Some people don't pay anything to go to school, so an education might be all they want because they won't be in debt at the end.

 

[Rika]

.Another example, I have a friend who is doing computer engineering. He does not even like studying; if he could do what he spontaneously wanted to do, it would be video games, but those really don't earn you anything He was hardworking enough to scrape through the graduation and secure a modest entry level job.

How come? With programming skills you can secure a modest entry level job in gamedev company too. Was he "indie or nothing" kind of guy or sth?

Right after you talk about how you aren't studying to gt a job, you suggest you are "going into physics." Studying physics is NOT going into physics- more likely than not its going into IT,finance, insurance,etc. You should do what you love, but it helps to think longer term than "right now." i.e. if you would be happier in engineering than in insurance, you should probably major in engineering and not physics.

True. People think that if you go to college for career then it means that you see $$$ in your eyes but it's not true. For me having enjoyable job is most important. Well no matter what college lasts 3-5 years while job lasts decades.

I don't think that studying physics for 3-10 years and then going for a job that you don't like (programming or sth) pays off. In long-term it's better to think what kind of JOB would you like to have, not what do you want to STUDY.

I trully have enjoyed studying physics - reading books, watching movies etc. but I have realized that I don't want to work as programmer, medical physicist, engineer, researcher or teacher. Fortunately education in my country is tuitition-free so I didn't waste my parent's money and I could do everything over again (I work in a different field that I trully enjoy and study different, my job-related major).

It's also true that people from poor countries (not as rich as US) just simply can't afford to study whatever they want (unless their parents run successful business) because they will end up in customer services job (7200$ per year) and stay there forever. Humanities/social sciences but also science (biology, chemistry) are "no-no" in my country. Money is not everything but with 7200$ per year you can't afford to have car, 2-rooms flat or start a family.

What's more - if we want to try our luck in different, rich country we need to have PRACTICAL skills (field doesn't matter) to set our foot there. Getting academic (not practical) degree leads to low-paid job in customer services. Working 5 years in customer services doesn't count as reliable job experience or skills.

It's true that while working in customer services you can pick up some skills on your own like programming but for god's sake - not everyone can become programmers. It is said in my country that if you don't have a talent for practical degree (medicine, computer science etc.) or a certain passion that can bring food to your table (in my case it's gamedev) then instead of getting useless science/humanities degree you should get solid vocational traning and become electrician, plumber, chief etc. And if you want to educate yourself in let's say literature then you can pick up some books and read stuff in internet.

 

[dkotschessaa]

I was a bit cynical in my original post, I will admit. I'm going to study this even if it means I work out of field, just because the subject is amazing. But at the same time, it's expensive! I will have to recoup my losses, and I'd rather be in a better position afterwords.


May I ask about teaching? How do you guys feel about it? I don't see it mentioned too often on here (I haven't been around long, though). There are lots of teaching jobs out there, no?

Best case scenario-- I'm a genius and didn't know it, land a research job
Middle case scenarios-- I find an interesting job in a related field.
Worst case scenario-- I teach. Heck, teaching isn't that bad, I could live and be happy with this too.

I hate to sound mystical but since I'm a "returning adult" I have a different perspective on this stuff. I think you should pursue your studies with passion and vigor. Do something you absolutely love and possibly are obsessed with. Don't spend too much attention on job considerations (the biggest obstacle to this is parents, who want to know "what are you going to do with that?") but keep your eyes open for opportunities. I think if you are hardworking, passionate, and good, the opportunities will appear. The work will come.

It might even entail a complete change of direction. You may get a bachelors in physics and find you are totally satisfied and you want to move into engineering, programming, get an MBA, become a welder or truck driver - who the hell knows. If you pursue education for enlightenment rather than for job training then that's always going to be with you no matter where you go afterwards.

I know this is easier said than done when you're younger and worrying about how to earn a living and such.

To answer your original question, which for some reason I didn't - you can do pretty much anything with a math and/or physics degree, grad school wise.

To answer your question in this post, there is nothing wrong with teaching, though I'm not sure on what level you mean this. This could mean anything from high school (or lower) to the coveted, tenured professor job (in which case you are doing research as well.)

-Dave K

 

[Choppy]

I can't help, but wonder if my original point was missed.

If you look at the data on people who graduate with a physics degree, they tend to do fairly well financially - earning roughly in the middle of the pack when compared with engineers, and well ahead of most other majors - including business, social science, and biochem-types.

Education increases your earning potential. That's a hard fact.

What I meant was that a degree in physics doesn't train you for a specific job. Unlike engineering for example, when you graduate and go out to look for that first career-type job, you won't find many postings that are specifically looking for someone with a physics degree.

As a physics graduate you will have many skills that employers find desirable: problem-solving, programming, research, technical writing, a thorough understanding of technical areas, and even project-management skills.

But most undergraduate physics programs are not designed to prepare you for a specific job. They're designed to teach you physics and prepare you for graduate school.

 

[Locrian]

Graduate school should be free?

Oh no, I meant cost $0 to you. I'm not arguing it is free.

My stipend was roughly $1400 a month, if I remember right. I did accrue a little bit of debt, but I could have avoided it had I been more prudent with my money. (For some reason, it has always been that when I’m in school, I spend more freely; another good reason for me to not be in school. . .)

This is grad school in physics we’re discussing though, right? An MBA or PT will cost a big chunk of change.

 

[tolove]

"There are lots of teaching jobs out there, no?"

I wouldn't say so. Teach for America could find a spot for you. Otherwise many districts are putting teachers on furlough and letting them retire without re-hiring. Teaching jobs are out there, but there is not lots. Of my undergrad cohort 3 of them ended up doing Teach for America.

This probably wasn't meant to reassure me, but I really like knowing about this program. I have an unusual ability to deal with stressful people, and have always been drawn to areas like this (not as a permanent career, though!).

Post-doc assistant jobs will be an option for a while, teaching is an option, going out of physics and into a related field is an option, grad school shouldn't cost much out of pocket, then, of course, the dream of landing a research position. This is enough for me.

Now I can just worry about getting my GPA above a 3.3. I graduated my 2-year with a 3.0, so I will worry about this now! Time to review calculus and classical physics, then pre-study modern physics before classes start.

I'm glad I made this thread, very nice forum here!

 

[chill_factor]

I can't help, but wonder if my original point was missed.

If you look at the data on people who graduate with a physics degree, they tend to do fairly well financially - earning roughly in the middle of the pack when compared with engineers, and well ahead of most other majors - including business, social science, and biochem-types.

Education increases your earning potential. That's a hard fact.

What I meant was that a degree in physics doesn't train you for a specific job. Unlike engineering for example, when you graduate and go out to look for that first career-type job, you won't find many postings that are specifically looking for someone with a physics degree.

As a physics graduate you will have many skills that employers find desirable: problem-solving, programming, research, technical writing, a thorough understanding of technical areas, and even project-management skills.

But most undergraduate physics programs are not designed to prepare you for a specific job. They're designed to teach you physics and prepare you for graduate school.

averages are misleading; you should know the distribution. physics majors have a very wide distribution of pays ranging from investment banking level to fast food level. turns out that investment banking + fast food / 2 = slightly higher than average pay.

this tells me that it is the quality of the people that learn physics, rather than physics the subject itself, that predicts success. Your personal potential is maximized (or minimized) with a physics degree. An average guy majoring in business and getting a 3.5 is going to have better prospects than an average guy majoring in physics getting a 3.0; on the other hand, someone brilliant will be better served in physics.

Also its interesting to note but the average GRE scores, both verbal and quant, are higher for physics majors than for any other physical science/engineering majors, which themselves are higher than for life and social sciences.

 

[Locrian]

I don't see where Choppy mentioned averages at all. He could well be referring to the median, which is less sensitive to skew.

 

[Bipolarity]

How come? With programming skills you can secure a modest entry level job in gamedev company too. Was he "indie or nothing" kind of guy or sth?

I meant playing video games not designing them. Even game design does not pay as much as engineering.

BiP

 

[Rika]

I meant playing video games not designing them. Even game design does not pay as much as engineering.

BiP

ah I see now.

Yes ofc - gamedev doesn't pay as well as business programming or advertising but still allows you to lead comfortable middle class life (at least here).

 

[Moneer81]

I've decided on going back to school for a physics degree. I want to know it, and there's nothing else out there that I'm as interested in. But school isn't for pleasure, it's for getting a job. A 4-year in physics alone, from what I've been reading, is about as good as any other degree. It'll look nice, but get you very little by itself.

Now, for graduate school.. help?

What degrees are currently in demand? What degrees could I cross over into with a physics BS? Where are good places to find internships (Virginia)?

Wanted to put in my 2 cents, although the discussion here kinda ended.

I think you guys are a little hard on the OP. I completely understand your way of thinking, tolove, you love physics, but like most normal people, you want a secure career. You might or might not be on a quest to get rich, but that's besides the point. I think it is completely normal that you want to go to school for potentially many years and also want to have that pay off, both by virtue of learning what you love, and also financially.

That being said, my (potentially inaccurate) research is pointing me towards the following in demand areas:

1. Accelerator physics: there are a couple threads about this topic and there was an article back in 2010 that described this field as a field where "jobs go begging". Not many schools offer this program, but I find it very interesting as there is going to be a growing demand and at the same time it is a very applicable field (there are industry-demands for it), and it is also hands-on.

2. Laser physics: that also includes optics and its many applications. I am currently very interested in this field as I am aware of the many applications and industry demands. Lasers are very important in the communications industry for example (where my background is in), so you're always going to have companies and research programs looking for optical physicists. Also, this is one field that is not dominated by engineers (there are no optics engineering programs). Most engineers working in laser physics typically have a double major in EE and physics or a heave focus in physics.

3. Medical physics: used to be good a few years ago and you could get into the field and secure a nice job at a hospital as a medical physicist with just an MA (at a radiation oncology department for example) but the field has become very competitive, and last I heard, medical physicists have to go through a residency program now (like medical students). But in my opinion anything that has to do with healthcare will always have good prospects.

4. Experimental particle physics: not sure about this one. I am sure Particlegirl would disagree. This field is very popular now and is making good strides, but I think it is very competitive, and if I am not wrong, if you want to be good at it, you would have to master the very difficult math.


Any other suggestions? I am very interested in this topic as you can tell. Please correct me if I am wrong about any of the above or if I missed something obvious.

 

[tolove]

...

Thank you very much for the suggestions. I have heard the medical physicist suggestion a few different places now. Laser physics sounds very logical as well, and that's actually a subject that has been a mystery to me for a while. The other two suggestions you made are a bit above my understanding, but they sound interesting.

I will look for some books on each subject and see how they feel.

 

[ZombieFeynman]

An average guy majoring in business and getting a 3.5 is going to have better prospects than an average guy majoring in physics getting a 3.0; on the other hand, someone brilliant will be better served in physics.

Data, please. Support this claim.

 

[Moneer81]

tolove,

Here is the article about accelerator physics:

http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/april-2010/a-field-where-jobs-go-begging

 

[dkotschessaa]

Data, please. Support this claim.

I don't know about the exact data as far as GPA he quoted, but in principal I agree. Do a google search for the top rated jobs/careers and you'll find they are always math and science related. Sometimes medical, depending on the list.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123119236117055127.html
http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings/the-25-best-jobs
http://www.careercast.com/jobs-rated/10-best-jobs-2012
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1858773,00.html

I think a major in "business" in itself is pretty useless, because it begs the question "*what* business?" Though I think it could very powerful when combined with another major.

In general as far as GPA, a 3.0 in math/physics etc. is much more impressive than a 3.5 in business/literature/film etc. Though people passionate about those topics should pursue them for their own sake, IMO.

-Dave K

 

[micromass]

I don't know about the exact data as far as GPA he quoted, but in principal I agree.

So you're saying that a degree in science is better than a degree in business? But that's the opposite of what chill_factor said, so you disagree with him?

 

[Moneer81]

We're hijacking the thread here...I'd rather talk about what fields of physics are in high demand (OP's initial question) instead of an obscure argument about what combination of degree + GPA is better...

 

[gravenewworld]

Everything you need to know about grad school is here: http://whatshouldwecallgradschool.tumblr.com/

 

[dkotschessaa]

So you're saying that a degree in science is better than a degree in business? But that's the opposite of what chill_factor said, so you disagree with him?

Oh snap, I misread his sentence in a very dyslexic way.

I totally disagree with him. A low gpa science degree is much more impressive/useful than any kind of business degree.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[javaNut]

I don't understand some of what is being written here about physics grad school.

1) I am an older physics grad student at U Arizona and I make about $25k/year, I get tuition waived, and free health insurance. The only cost to me is a few hundred per semester for some course fees. You should expect to earn a decent salary such as mine from any decent physics grad program (say in the top 50), although you should be sure to check with current grads at a school to be sure you are not being bamboozled (ALWAYS check with current grads before accepting any offer). What is this word "scholarship"? Such a word has no meaning to a physics grad student since we don't ever pay any tuition.

2) The physics PhD is both for enlightenment AND job training. Programs are aware of this and evolve over time to keep pace with the market (smart ones do anyway). At UA, we have "PhD minors" which allow us to take the core courses from other departments (any department in fact, I think even creative writing though you should check first). This is good because UA has several top ranked science departments/programs: Lunar Planetary Lab (Mars landers), Steward Observatory (LSST mirrors), College of Optics (Tucson is "optics valley" and has many companies), Theoretical Astrophysics, Chemical Physics, Applied Math, Eller Business School, etc. Also, full time is 9-hours so you can take any class after that for no extra charge (grad or undergrad), so you don't even need to do the PhD minor to take something that interests you outside of physics (or to get job skills), and some even count toward your PhD. IMPORTANT: I have not seen many schools with rules like this, so you should be sure to check ahead of time with prospective programs if you want these kinds of opportunities.

3) Teaching -vs- business -vs- science. Though you are unlikely to land a professorship at an R1 school with your PhD unless it is from top 10, you can (with some teaching portfolio development), get a position at a 4-year college. And more and more physics PhDs are finding their homes at community colleges and getting good salaries and even good students (many people don't realize they are smart until after high school, and I know several PhDs that actually began at community colleges). In business there is financial analysis, risk management and actuarial pricing just to name a few. PhDs can no longer walk into Wall Street type jobs (because so many have already done so), but with some planning and effort, you can land a highly paying job (and be the one that sends pizza money back to your SPS club). Planning ahead might include taking some graduate finance courses or some professional exams like the CFA. Let me just say that as a PhD physicist, you are expected to be able to solve any question regarding the natural world. And I mean ANY. And "business" is made of fundamental particles so it is included in this. (Yes, physics PhDs are arrogant like this, but isn't this a club you want to join?) Science jobs really depend on your research experiences: which kinds of equipment did you setup/operate/repair, what programming languages did you use, what electronics did you learn? Do you think Fermi or Feynman never soldered two wires together? The greats enjoyed solving ALL puzzles and ANY problem. Model your learning after them: try to learn everything. Technically, as a PhD in physics, it is your job to try to know everything.

4) Three things are needed to land your placement in a well-ranked physics PhD program: 1) good PGRE scores, 2) quality undergrad research, 3) and good grades. They are equally important in value to acceptance committees because they show that you can 1) buckle down and master difficult material and thus survive your comps, 2) think and work independently which is the ultimate goal, and 3) survive difficult core courses (some schools will even want to know which undergrad texts you used!).

View the PGRE as a "mini-comp". Nothing helped prepare me for the rigors of the PhD core courses like studying for the PGRE (because I had been lame in my classes). By spending 4 solid months studying for this exam, I filled in many holes in my knowledge. This is not a test you must pass once, the PGRE represents a level of mastery you will need to maintain during grad school, so study hard for it (actually study the material please) and realize you are preparing for every day of grad school by doing so. If your classes have not gone perfect because you are smart but a little lazy (but learning to work hard), then this is your chance to make up for the past. But still you should never let another student outperform you in your classes. Trust me, they are not smarter than you, just harder working, so get to it. Didn't you want to know everything that has to do with physics, anyway?

I kept a cot in my office during my first year of grad school because I would do about two all-nighters per week (and sleep from 6-8am in the cot instead of bothering to go home). I loved loved loved every painful minute of it because every minute of it I was learning all the advanced physics I had ever dreamed of knowing. You can have your cake and eat it too (enlightenment) if you also build your skill sets as you go along (job skills). As a physicist, you should be smart enough to realize this and make it happen.

5) Don't be afraid to contact a physics department's grad secretary to find out if you can apply late after the official deadline. I was accepted to some schools even though I applied (very) late. Often, the acceptance committee isn't happy with the candidate pool, or maybe the best ones already accepted other offers. IT NEVER HURTS TO CHECK! Just say something like you just learned about what a wonderful program they have and were wondering blah blah blah.

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I have seen posts here in the past from some very bright people getting into top 10 schools. That is useful to that crowd, but it would be useful to many others to see more average PhD students posting (and thus I have).

 

[H2Bro]

JavaNut,

thanks for the detailed post. I've heard really good things about UT Austin (as far as I know they are the only university to have sent a mission to another planet!). Is UT considered "top tier" ? And if so can I ask the PGRE / GPA / general application portfolio that landed you a spot?

I myself am considering getting into laser / optics. Lasers are a) way cool and b) way useful. But, that's at the M.s level I think.

Also, for graduate school, is it a disadvantage or advantage to do M.S before applying to a phd track? I'm in Europe where tuition is free but the degrees are 3 years, and I'm thinking that might not be enough time to built up a solid portfolio for admissions.

thanks!

 

[javaNut]

(deleted and rewritten below. What is up with this mentor thing?)

 

[javaNut]

1. Accelerator physics:
2. Laser physics:
3. Medical physics:
4. Experimental particle physics:

One problem we have is that none of us are much exposed to physicists once they leave the university, just the few grads we knew who finished and the profs (profs are usually useless at helping with the non-academic career tracks). I knew one PhD who wanted to go to Wall Street, but he never prepped at all for it, and they just won't take newbies anymore. Another got frustrated and quit (the PhD can be hell at times), and now he's thrilled doing software development. Another failed the comps but finished an optics masters and now works in industry (here in "optics valley" Tucson).

#1) Accelerator physics sounds fun. I had a friend at Indiana studying accelerator physics, and another at CalTech looking into new accelerator technologies. Lots of E&M in that field. You should look into the US Particle Accelerator School (it is international, people from everywhere). 1-2 week training program. I would say you would need to know E&M pretty well (advanced undergrad at least). Then you would know if you want to do accelerator physics.

#2) Solid state physics experiment or theory will always enable you to work in industry. Our whole technology is based on this. Plan ahead a little and land a really good job. And I would venture that AMO physics is nearly as good. Here it is best to choose whatever you have the strongest passion for.

#3) Medical physics would involve working in hospitals and dealing with doctors, but it would be lucrative and maybe fun. U Arizona has a program in medical physics. I know many programs are extremely expensive, but right now our PSM students (professional science masters) are getting TAships so have the same deal as a regular PhD grad. I believe they still have some expensive summer expenses. I believe that field is becoming standardized, which is usually economically good for a career field, to have a professional organization with exams and members.

#4) There can be electronics and device construction, but right now with all the CERN data pouring in, you can bet you will be programming: object-oriented C++ and python for the most part. The learning curve is steep, and no you don't have to "master" quantum field theory to be an experimentalist, that is for the theoreticians.

Too bad so many undergrad programs do a poor job offering advanced courses to expose their undergrads to all the major physics fields. I bet you could have a "career" course that discussed: AMO, CM, PP, Q optics/info, etc.; exp vs theory in each.

 

[javaNut]

JavaNut,

I've heard really good things about UT Austin (as far as I know they are the only university to have sent a mission to another planet!).

And if so can I ask the PGRE / GPA / general application portfolio that landed you a spot?

I myself am considering getting into laser / optics. Lasers are a) way cool and b) way useful. But, that's at the M.s level I think.

Also, for graduate school, is it a disadvantage or advantage to do M.S before

UT Austin is #14 on the usual rankings:
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...-schools/top-science-schools/physics-rankings
which must be why they rejected me.

I believe you are incorrect. I think it is U Arizona with the Mars mission(s):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_( spacecraft )

The details on each US school are here (where most of us look):
http://www.gradschoolshopper.com/

I believe I had a 780 or 790 on PGRE, 3.4 GPA, and very good research. What I have been told by various professors (at various institution in the past) is that the PGRE is not all or nothing. Good undergrad research and/or course grades can overcome a bad GRE score, and they really do look at your entire application regardless of your score. So you should apply if you think you have something to offer, no matter how bad you did. One professor told me he had a friend that got a 0th percentile and she still eventually became an astronomy professor. There is always hope for the determined.

Even if all you want is an MS in physics, you should not tell them. You should go for a PhD, and drop out with a masters if that is what you decide to do. Schools with PhD programs want/need PhD students. Unless it is a specialty program like our professional science masters, you must apply to the PhD program or they won't except you (there are always special cases). This is what I was told many times in the past, anyway. You will be able to pick up the MS on the way to PhD. Here at U Arizona, once you pass your written comps and oral defense, you merely pay $35 to get the MS degree. Many of my friends don't think it is worth the money if you can believe that, but I was like, "$35? What the hell, why not?" So now I have my masters in physics.

 

[Moneer81]

One problem we have is that none of us are much exposed to physicists once they leave the university, just the few grads we knew who finished and the profs (profs are usually useless at helping with the non-academic career tracks). I knew one PhD who wanted to go to Wall Street, but he never prepped at all for it, and they just won't take newbies anymore. Another got frustrated and quit (the PhD can be hell at times), and now he's thrilled doing software development. Another failed the comps but finished an optics masters and now works in industry (here in "optics valley" Tucson).

#1) Accelerator physics sounds fun. I had a friend at Indiana studying accelerator physics, and another at CalTech looking into new accelerator technologies. Lots of E&M in that field. You should look into the US Particle Accelerator School (it is international, people from everywhere). 1-2 week training program. I would say you would need to know E&M pretty well (advanced undergrad at least). Then you would know if you want to do accelerator physics.

#2) Solid state physics experiment or theory will always enable you to work in industry. Our whole technology is based on this. Plan ahead a little and land a really good job. And I would venture that AMO physics is nearly as good. Here it is best to choose whatever you have the strongest passion for.

#3) Medical physics would involve working in hospitals and dealing with doctors, but it would be lucrative and maybe fun. U Arizona has a program in medical physics. I know many programs are extremely expensive, but right now our PSM students (professional science masters) are getting TAships so have the same deal as a regular PhD grad. I believe they still have some expensive summer expenses. I believe that field is becoming standardized, which is usually economically good for a career field, to have a professional organization with exams and members.

#4) There can be electronics and device construction, but right now with all the CERN data pouring in, you can bet you will be programming: object-oriented C++ and python for the most part. The learning curve is steep, and no you don't have to "master" quantum field theory to be an experimentalist, that is for the theoreticians.

Too bad so many undergrad programs do a poor job offering advanced courses to expose their undergrads to all the major physics fields. I bet you could have a "career" course that discussed: AMO, CM, PP, Q optics/info, etc.; exp vs theory in each.

Thank you for your insights! Yes Indiana is one of the few schools offering Accelerator Physics. That does sound like a fascinating field. I also want to say that the employment prospects seem very high, given how important accelerators will be in science, research, healthcare, industry, etc.

Is there any way you can put me in touch with one of your friends who is doing Accelerator physics? I have not been able to get in touch with anyone in that field. You can pm if you'd like. And yes I know about USPAS and they seem to have excellent supplemental programs that covers the gap and prepares students for this field.

I am also very interested in optics and laser physics. I had no idea that Tucson is considered the optics valley. I need to research the companies and the jobs down there in that area. I am actually debating optics vs. Accelerator physics. I have a feeling optics will have many job prospects in the industry. Do you know anything about that? There are programs in "beam physics" that might combine laser physics and accelerator physics, but I could be wrong about that. If that was the case, I would love to pursue a program in beam physics instead.

Again, thanks for your insight and best of luck in school!

 

[javaNut]

1) Is there any way you can put me in touch with one of your friends who is doing Accelerator physics?
2) And yes I know about USPAS and they seem to have excellent supplemental programs that covers the gap and prepares students for this field.
3) I am also very interested in optics and laser physics. I had no idea that Tucson is considered the optics valley.
4) There are programs in "beam physics" that might combine laser physics and accelerator physics, but I could be wrong about that. If that was the case, I would love to pursue a program in beam physics instead.

1) I'm afraid it's been too long so I can't offer any contacts.
2) You can often get the tuition waived to USPAS leaving only the cost of the hotel. Your interests are so high, you should apply now despite not possibly meeting all the criteria. You will meet people in the field by going!
3) Tucson=lasers+telescopes. There are two optics buildings (in addition to physics, astro, etc.).
4) Sounds to me that you need to investigate schools that do this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_acceleration
Good luck!

 

[Hercuflea]

What is considered "good research"? How many papers should you publish as an undergrad in order for it to be considered "good research"? The reason I ask is because with my math professor (who has written me a rec) I will be researching fourth order boundary value ODE's next semester describing cantilever beams, but the subject matter is so obscure that I am not sure if it would be considered "good research."

 

[javaNut]

What is considered "good research"? How many papers should you publish as an undergrad in order for it to be considered "good research"? The reason I ask is because with my math professor (who has written me a rec) I will be researching fourth order boundary value ODE's next semester describing cantilever beams, but the subject matter is so obscure that I am not sure if it would be considered "good research."

I thought quantum cantilevers were a big deal nowadays. Just google-search "quantum cantilever". I think I remember 1) seeing an experiment talk on this in our optics department, and 2) that we have a theory prof who has published on this (actually two profs I think, you would have to do your own research though, but I have heard of this topic). My guess is that your math guy picked cantilevers precisely because they were popping up in physics papers and were thus relevant. You might want to read up a little on quantum cantilevers and write a blurb in your statement relating your research to current physics research.