Can You Solve This Integration Problem with a Little Help from Trigonometry?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Ravenatic20
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Integration
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around solving an integration problem involving the integral of the function \(\frac{x^2}{\sqrt{4 + x^2}}\) using trigonometric substitution. Participants explore various methods for integration, including integration by parts and alternative substitutions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant begins with the substitution \(x = 2 \tan u\) and derives several expressions, but expresses difficulty in progressing further.
  • Another participant suggests using integration by parts and provides alternative forms of the integral, indicating multiple approaches may be valid.
  • There is a discussion about the integration of \(\sec u \tan u\) and the potential to apply integration by parts multiple times, with one participant noting the need to handle \(\int \sec^3 \theta d\theta\) carefully.
  • One participant proposes a different substitution, \(x = 2 \sinh(t)\), suggesting it could simplify the integral, while also providing a specific result for the integral.
  • Several participants engage in light-hearted banter regarding the challenges of calculus and the learning process, with some humorously referencing the benefits of being "drunk" while doing calculus.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best method to solve the integral, with multiple competing approaches and some uncertainty regarding the necessity of re-substitution in the final answer.

Contextual Notes

Some participants mention the importance of textbook methods and standard results, indicating that familiarity with these may influence the approach taken. There are also references to specific integration techniques that may require further clarification or derivation.

Ravenatic20
Messages
30
Reaction score
0
This is what I have so far:

[tex]\int (\frac{x^2}{\sqrt{4 + x^2}}) dx[/tex]

[tex]x = 2 tan u[/tex]
[tex]dx = (2 sec^2u) du[/tex]

[tex]x^2 = 4 tan^2 u[/tex]

[tex]\sqrt{4 + x^2} = \sqrt{4 + 4 tan^2 u}[/tex]

[tex]\sqrt{4 + x^2} = \sqrt{4 (1 + tan^2 u}[/tex]

[tex]\sqrt{4 + x^2} = \sqrt{4 sec^2 u}[/tex]

[tex]\sqrt{4 + x^2} = 2 sec u[/tex]

Then I have:

[tex]\int (\frac{x^2}{\sqrt{4 + x^2}}) dx = \int \frac{4 tan^2 u}{2 sec u} 2 sec^2 u du[/tex]

[tex]\int (\frac{x^2}{\sqrt{4 + x^2}}) dx = \int (4 tan^2 u)(sec u) du[/tex]

I keep getting stuck on this part, any ideas?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Assuming your work is correct ...

[tex]4\int\tan^{2}\theta\sec \theta d\theta[/tex]

[tex]4\int(\sec \theta \tan \theta) \tan \theta d\theta[/tex]

Or go straight to this ...

[tex]4\int(\sec^{3}\theta-\sec \theta) d\theta[/tex]

Either way, integration by parts!
 
Last edited:
Taking that...

[tex]4\int(\sec u \tan u) \tan u du[/tex]

And knowing that:

[tex]\int(\sec u \tan u) du = \sec u + C[/tex]

and...

[tex]\int\sec u du = ln |\sec u + \tan u|)+ C[/tex]

Can we just do it by parts that way?

So...

[tex]\int (\frac{x^2}{\sqrt{4 + x^2}}) dx = 4(\sec u + ln |\sec u + \tan u|) + C[/tex]

(crosses figures) :blushing:
 
Ravenatic20 said:
Can we just do it by parts that way?
You must be drunk!

[tex]4\int(\sec \theta \tan \theta) \tan \theta d\theta[/tex]

Usually, you want to reserve "u" so I'm using theta in it's place.

[tex]u=\tan \theta[/tex]
[tex]du=\sec^{2} \theta d\theta[/tex]

[tex]dV=\sec \theta \tan \theta d\theta[/tex]
[tex]V=\sec \theta[/tex]

[tex]4\int(\sec \theta \tan \theta) \tan \theta d\theta=4(\sec \theta \tan \theta-\int\sec^{3}\theta d\theta)[/tex]

Do parts again, you will actually have to do it 3x, I think. Take [tex]\int\sec^{3}\theta d\theta[/tex] to the side and you will notice that you get it back. Just move it to the other side and divide by the constant, and it's solved.
 
Last edited:
No I'm not drunk, I'm just new to this material. However I think were just about done:

I understand how you did everything, so now...

[tex]4\int(\sec \theta \tan \theta) \tan \theta d\theta=4(\sec \theta \tan \theta-\int\sec^{3}\theta d\theta)[/tex]
Where... [tex]\int\sec^{3}\theta d\theta) = \frac{1}{2} \sec \theta \tan \theta + \frac{1}{2} ln|sec \theta + tan \theta| + C[/tex]

This gives us:
[tex]\int (\frac{x^2}{\sqrt{4 + x^2}}) dx = 4 (\sec x \tan x)-\frac{1}{2} \sec x \tan x + \frac{1}{2} ln|sec x + tan x| + C[/tex]

?
 
To be honest, I did not work it out myself. Looks good though! Btw, hopefully you weren't angry with my comment. I didn't mean anything by it in terms of you just having learned this :p But um, your answer could be right, all depends if your teacher wants you to re-substitute ... this would be the most painful part, lol.
 
Haha no offense taken and thanks for your help!
 
Actually, he meant it helps to be drunk when doing calculus!
 
A much faster way to learn these type of integrals is to go through a standard textbook step by step, and use paper and pen.
 
  • #10
ssd said:
A much faster way to learn these type of integrals is to go through a standard textbook step by step, and use paper and pen.
Really? Mr. Obvious.
 
  • #11
Another way of doing this integral is by using the substitution:

[tex]x=2\cdot sinh(t)[/tex]

after setting:

[tex]x^2=x^2+4-4[/tex]

in the numerator. You will end up with:

[tex]I=\frac{x}{2}\sqrt{4+x^2}-2\cdot argsinh\left( \frac{x}{2}\right)+C[/tex]

Btw: I'm sober :wink:
 
  • #12
rocophysics said:
Really? Mr. Obvious.
Some times people has to be more obvious than needed for some people who are reluctent to see in textbooks the standard result like

integral [sqrt(a^2 + x^2)] dx = (x/2) sqrt(a^2 + x^2)+ [(a^2)/2] ln|(x+sqrt(a^2+x^2)|+c
(I leave the derivation of this result for obvious reasons)

and cannot see x^2 = x^2 +a^2-a^2, as shown in the previous post by COOMAST. Then the remaining term is easily (obviously?) undone by substituting x=2tan(u).
After COOMAST's method, I would prefer this method as it will be easier to go back in terms of the original veriable. Is it obv...?
 
Last edited:
  • #13
HallsofIvy said:
Actually, he meant it helps to be drunk when doing calculus!

Don't drink and derive.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K