Causal structure of spacetime: intuitive reason for non-compactness?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the non-compactness of spacetime and its implications for the existence of closed timelike curves. Participants explore intuitive understandings and mathematical underpinnings related to the causal structure of spacetime, referencing works by Hawking, Ellis, and others.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that if spacetime were compact, it would imply the existence of "special" points that could break the principle of relativity, leading to complications in the causal structure.
  • Another participant references a paper by Paul Kinlaw that discusses topology in relation to the topic, indicating a mathematical perspective on the issues raised.
  • There is mention of a proof regarding the impossibility of compact spacetime due to closed timelike curves, with a participant noting that this proof was shared by another user.
  • A participant expresses an interest in understanding the implications of certain mathematical properties, such as being Hausdorff, on the causal structure of spacetime and its physical implications.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about their interpretations and the correctness of their assumptions, indicating a willingness to explore and refine their understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus, as multiple viewpoints and interpretations regarding the implications of compactness in spacetime are presented. Some participants agree on the foundational arguments against compactness, while others explore alternative interpretations and implications.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the topic, with references to mathematical proofs and concepts that may not be fully resolved or understood. There are indications of missing assumptions and the dependence on specific definitions related to compactness and causal structures.

jarlostensen
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Apologies in advance if this has been asked and answered somewhere else, I searched but could not find anything.

I just wanted to verify if my intuitive understanding of why space time (if it is to be physically plausible) can not be compact.

According to Hawking and Ellis (and others) space time can not be compact because it would allow for the existence of closed time like curves. I understand (I think) that argument based on limit points, or accumulation points, which define a (sequence) compact space and how this allows such curves to exist.

Now, is it also correct, and much simpler, to assume that *if* space time was compact, this would imply "special" points in space time (i.e. the limit points) which breaks the principle of relativity, somehow...?

I.e. if space time is compact, then there exists an arbitrary number of points which are the accumulation points for sequences of time like curves and (ignoring *completely* the closed-timelike curve problem) this would imply that geodesics would be influenced by other things than just mass/energy (as the causal argument is independent of any solution to Einstein's field equations.)

Or am I very very far off on a tangent indeed..?
 
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I wonder if the following will help:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1005/1005.2591v1.pdf

The author, Paul Kinlaw, recently finished his PhD in math and talked about it where I am. Its a bit mathy (essentially a topology paper) but I think it addresses what you're interested into some degree. The problems he's interested in were originally motivated in physics but he's a few degrees removed and so has some trouble fielding those types of questions. I straddle math and physics but have yet to really study GR (soon...very soon).

I hope it helps.
 
Thank you for your response, the article looks very interesting and I'm rolling up my sleeves and digging into it! If I get to some sort of epiphany I'll post a follow up.
 
jarlostensen said:
According to Hawking and Ellis (and others) space time can not be compact because it would allow for the existence of closed time like curves.
George Jones posted the proof of this part (or most of it anyway) here.
 
Thanks Fredrik, I was following Wald's book on GR plus what I could gleam from "The Large Scale Structure of Space Time" on Google books - I think George Jones' reply that you refer to is very clear and helpful - I'm going to wrap my head around this last part in particular (I think it holds a clue to the epiphany I need to get to):
...Consequently, p_1 is in I+(p_1), i.e., there exists a smooth, future-directed timelike curve from p_1 to p_1.

I.e. that a finite subcover and, perhaps on an equally fundamental level, that "M" is Hausdorff, means that points will inevitably lie in their own chronological- and causal -future.

Perhaps this has some relevance to my starting point, i.e. that this also implies that space has some sort of "preferred structure" which would imply non-matter originating effects which could not be encoded in the Einstein tensor and hence are unphysical (leading to compact space times being unphysical) - but that part is still something I'm trying to understand (and I am starting to suspect that it's just plain wrong)
 

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