Celebrate or Not: Bin Laden's Death - Thoughts?

[ƒ(x)]

People I know seem fairly polarized between whether or not it's acceptable to celebrate bin Laden's death. Any thoughts?

 

[Perfection]

I play dead pools so I'll celebrate if certain notable people that I like die.

 

[Evo]

People I know seem fairly polarized between whether or not it's acceptable to celebrate bin Laden's death. Any thoughts?

I see it as a means of closure for thousands of grieving families, and a significant blow to the realm of terror he started.

 

[DR13]

People I know seem fairly polarized between whether or not it's acceptable to celebrate bin Laden's death. Any thoughts?

I'm happy about it. He killed thousands of innocent people. How am I supposed to feel?

 

[lisab]

Personally, no I could never celebrate a death.

But the reaction we're seeing, I think it's more complicated than what's on the surface - it's not just a simple celebration, IMO.

It's been a tough decade. Seemingly endless wars, draining our spirit and blowing up the deficit. Still almost 10% unemployment, stagnant wages.

I think we're all just ready to either turn a corner, or let our heads explode (figuratively of course). And this event comes along...it's like the perfect catharsis.

We needed this.

 

[rootX]

On morality grounds, we can argue forever in circles and still not reach anywhere. Nonetheless from my personal perspective, I would not cherish anyone's death. I would be happy about consequences resulting from the death if there are some positive consequences.

Only thing I really felt really sad about was that Osama was killed in front of his 13 years old daughter.

 

[rootX]

It's been a tough decade. Seemingly endless wars, draining our spirit and blowing up the deficit. Still almost 10% unemployment, stagnant wages.

When it feels too tough, you can always look at people in Afganistan/Pakistan/Iraq

 

[ƒ(x)]

Here are the arguments of some people i know (no names of course):
Against:
"a life is still a life no matter how atrocious the person" - person A
"how civil of a society are we if we parade in the streets when we kill a man" - A again
"its not up to any human to decide if someone is worth being treated as a human being" - person B
For:
"bin laden left it up to his judgement whether or not he should take the lives of 3000 people. He was a menace and needed to be destroyed." - Person Z

There's more, but I think I got the main parts.

There are certain acts one can do to forfeit his humanity, and mass murder is one of them.

 

[russ_watters]

It's a celebration of justice and his death wasn't really necessary for it. I'd be almost as happy if he had been captured.

 

[Curl]

nobody cares anymore since he probably moved on from running the show a long time ago.

His gang probably did him into create a distraction. He was useless to them so they threw him out to get caught so that everyone will feel safe all of the sudden... then BOOM. <- could happen, you never know

 

[Darken-Sol]

i don't think anyone i know really cares. everyone i speak to just replies that they heard about it already.

 

[chiro]

Personally I'm kinda stunned.

The US has spent over a trillion dollars (of your money), killed many hundreds of thousands of people, and created a huge mess in other countries (Afghanistan and Iraq) and I'm supposed to think one man in a mansion actually makes a difference? You're telling me that all of the above was worth this one man?

Then people turn around and say they have defeated the terrorists. Whoever was responsible for those attacks also had a victory. The security state is what a terrorist actually wants. The terrorist wants its victim to be frightened, to be in constant fear: that's the whole point of terrorism: almost its very definition.

Look at what is happening at your airports. Do you really need to put 3 year olds through microwave machines and frisk them because they have a bomb? When people are scared, the terrorists have won.

 

[chiro]

Also when I talk about the US killing people I am talking about the US military and not your average US citizen and I understand that most US people are civilized and against some of the atrocities that have been committed.

 

[JaredJames]

killed many hundreds of thousands of people

Is it really that high?

 

[cobalt124]

Celebrating death will achieve nothing. I'm glad I read this and the bin laden thread to put some perspective on what is happening because otherwise (and not only in the U.S.) the response to bin Ladens death looked really ugly to me. Did the glorification thing for the Falklands War (!) and for the first Gulf War and I look back in shame. Much better to just bring bin Laden to justice, be happy that that has been achieved, leave it there and move on.

 

[JaredJames]

I'm just happy justice is served. I couldn't care whether he was alive or dead. Either way, we got him.

 

[cobalt124]

I was expecting The Sun newspaper to revive its "Gotcha" headline from the Falklands War. It came up with "Bin Bagged". Ugh!

 

[AlephZero]

In the west, when someone dies you usually celebrate their life, not their death.

The chanting flag wavers in the US only goes to show that the mentality of gun law and the lynch mob is still alive and kicking. Given the number of times the US administration as changed its story, it's anybody's guess what really happened. In any case, isn't this the third time the US have told the world they killed OBL?

The most interesting thing here is the tidal wave of popular protests that hasn't swept across the entire Islamic world. Apart from one statement from Hamas, does anyboby except the Washington rent-a-mob and the news media actually care? Or do they know something that the US adminstration doesn't?

Real life goes on as before. Five Bangladeshis arrested for suspicious behaviour near the Sellafield nuclear waste reprocessing site in the UK, for example...

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Celebrating the death of a guy who caused the deaths of thousands isn't too bad a thing so long as people keep their heads. The thing I am most weary of is people thinking that This Is It! Osama Bin Laden isn't the evil bad guy sitting in a cave co-ordinating the worlds evil. He was one guy who was the figurehead of terrorism. This isn't the end of a bond film, it's just another step in our constant kill kill culture we've developed.

And whilst I am not an expert on how the operation was carried out I think killing him was a mistake. He should have been arrested, bought back to the US and put on trial.

 

[Newai]

In any case, isn't this the third time the US have told the world they killed OBL?

I had heard speculative reports in the past, but this is the first time our president has DNA evidence from his body in military possession. It's about as reliable as can be.

 

[jobyts]

Is it really that high?

Unfortunately, yes. It is very high.

A year 2008 article in Guardian estimates the number of deaths in Iraq is in between 100,000 and 1 million.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/iraq

 

[JaredJames]

Unfortunately, yes. It is very high.

A year 2008 article in Guardian estimates the number of deaths in Iraq is in between 100,000 and 1 million.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/iraq

Well it's nice to see the accuracy they're working in.

As terrible as both numbers are, that is a very large margin of error to be working in.

 

[DanP]

I'm just happy justice is served. I couldn't care whether he was alive or dead. Either way, we got him.

The US Navy got him, not "we". Give credit where credit is due.

 

[JaredJames]

The US Navy got him, not "we". Give credit where credit is due.

Well given the debate on who did what (obama/bush nonsense), I'm just using a blanket statement to avoid any further nit picking.

Clearly failed. Given your attitude towards myself in the past it's not surprising the response you gave either.

My own personal thoughts give credit to those people who actually went in and did the job - but as I said, didn't want to fuel the current debate with people.

 

[rootX]

The chanting flag wavers in the US only goes to show that the mentality of gun law and the lynch mob is still alive and kicking...

There are idiots all over the world not just the US .. OBL death event is heavily emotional/sentimental.

 

[physics girl phd]

I tend to be along RootX's lines:

On morality grounds, we can argue forever in circles and still not reach anywhere. Nonetheless from my personal perspective, I would not cherish anyone's death. I would be happy about consequences resulting from the death if there are some positive consequences.

Only thing I really felt really sad about was that Osama was killed in front of his 13 years old daughter.

But I'll add that I do also feel upset that people "celebrated" in front off the Capital, etc. That kind of behavior fuels embers of hatred.

 

[cobalt124]

Celebrating the death of a guy

IMO it's a bad thing to do in itself, irrespective of the circumstances, agin its a personal opinion.

But I'll add that I do also feel upset that people "celebrated" in front off the Capital, etc. That kind of behavior fuels embers of hatred.

Yes this being broadcast all over the internet will not help. Luckily, there are more "positive" responses there as well so the overall "message" being given out isn't that bad. But understandably people are not going to think about this in their initial gut reactions.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

People I know seem fairly polarized between whether or not it's acceptable to celebrate bin Laden's death. Any thoughts?

It is the end of an era. Dead or captured, either was acceptable. Frankly, I'm glad he's dead. You'll get no equivocation from me. But I don't see it as a celebration of death. As has been said, it is a celebration of justice.

 

[micromass]

Personally, I'm quite sad that he died. Don't get me wrong, he was an extremely evil man, but I value life too much to wish death to anybody. Also, I would think justice would be better served if we actually brought him to trial, where he had to answer for his crimes. Killing him was the easy way out, and now people in the middle-east can begin worshipping him as martyr...

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Personally, I'm quite sad that he died. Don't get me wrong, he was an extremely evil man, but I value life too much to wish death to anybody. Also, I would think justice would be better served if we actually brought him to trial, where he had to answer for his crimes. Killing him was the easy way out, and now people in the middle-east can begin worshipping him as martyr...

I agree. I would much rather see justice dispensed by a judge than a soldier. However if there was no other way then there was no other way

 

[cobalt124]

Personally, I'm quite sad that he died.

I understand this sentiment, but OBL put himself in this position. His actions had consequences (justified IMO). Taking him alive would have been a much more dangerous operation IMO, and I don't see how any criticism can be levelled at the U.S. for the way the operation was carried out (I'm not sayng you are being critical bere, that is more aimed at what I have been reading in general).

 

[cobalt124]

I agree. I would much rather see justice dispensed by a judge than a soldier. However if there was no other way then there was no other way

That's the way I see it too.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I understand this sentiment, but OBL put himself in this position. His actions had consequences (justified IMO). Taking him alive would have been a much more dangerous operation IMO, and I don't see how any criticism can be levelled at the U.S. for the way the operation was carried out (I'm not sayng you are being critical bere, that is more aimed at what I have been reading in general.

Exactly. If it was possible for his capture but they went for the kill I would be far more critical. But if there was a risk to the men performing the operation it was the sensible thing to do. It's not an end to terrorism at all but perhaps it will make the world a slightly safer place.

 

[hypatia]

I think it is sad when anyone dies. I shook my head when people celebrated 9/11, and I've been shaking my head for the past few days. Humans being human..hmm imagine that.

 

[DanP]

Exactly. If it was possible for his capture but they went for the kill I would be far more critical.

Unless you put your life in line to capture somebody, be part of that operation or the respective the chain of command, you get nothing to say critically at the military. You can express your disagreement at the next elections, if you really consider it a big political blunder. It's easy to be critical from an armchair in front of your computer while others are fighting to keep you safe(r) in some god forgotten place in Karakorum range.

I think it is sad when anyone dies.

Yeah, what can I say, I was all tears they shoot Ceausescu :P You know what I did when I seen him executed ? I laughed. I was relieved. His death was a clear marker of the end of a terrible era for the ppl of my country. I enjoyed that moment. At that time I would have gladly urinated on his grave. He destroyed the lives of millions. He deserved the bullet. I wasted no empathy on him, nor I will waste it on other humans who ruin the lives of so many others.

Humans are interesting creatures. Some of us seem to have a capacity to be sad and feel mercy for the most heinous criminals in the history. Too bad that your mercy is wasted. Wasted on beings who would not blink twice to have you killed.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Unless you put your life in line to capture somebody, be part of that operation or the respective the chain of command, you get nothing to say critically at the military. You can express your disagreement at the next elections, if you really consider it a big political blunder. It's easy to be critical from an armchair in front of your computer while others are fighting to keep you safe(r) in some god forgotten place in Karakorum range.

If you read everything I posted you would realize I was not criticizing the outcome but expressing my desire for a different one. The fact that I was not involved in the operation means that I reserve criticism and I have said that. I was not being "critical from an armchair whilst others keep me safe". Perhaps you should make sure you are understanding what somebody else is saying before you jump to criticize them.

 

[micromass]

Too bad that your mercy is wasted. Wasted on beings who would not blink twice to have you killed.

It is this mercy that makes us different from such people. If we wouldn't feel sad to see somebody die, then we would be just like them. The mercy is wasted, but at least I'm glad I felt the mercy...

 

[JaredJames]

It is this mercy that makes us different from such people. If we wouldn't feel sad to see somebody die, then we would be just like them. The mercy is wasted, but at least I'm glad I felt the mercy...

Incredibly well said.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

It is this mercy that makes us different from such people. If we wouldn't feel sad to see somebody die, then we would be just like them. The mercy is wasted, but at least I'm glad I felt the mercy...

I'll echo JaredJames, brilliantly put!

 

[cobalt124]

The mercy is wasted, but at least I'm glad I felt the mercy...

This is what I've been avoiding saying really. When I didn't feel that mercy, or the sadness of somebodys death, it was damaging me. Thats just me though.

 

[DanP]

It is this mercy that makes us different from such people. If we wouldn't feel sad to see somebody die, then we would be just like them.

Somebody who ? That is the question :P

The mercy is wasted, but at least I'm glad I felt the mercy...

http://www.mwkworks.com/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html"

 

[rootX]

It is this mercy that makes us different from such people. If we wouldn't feel sad to see somebody die, then we would be just like them. The mercy is wasted, but at least I'm glad I felt the mercy...

I have said this many times earlier, no one is different. You are comparing people who never seen anything worst than not getting a dessert for their dinner to people who never been to schools and seen dinner only on fortunate days.

 

[cobalt124]

Somebody who ? That is the question

I don't make that distinction. Again, that's just me.

 

[DanP]

I have said this many times earlier, no one is different. You are comparing people who never seen anything worst than not getting a dessert for their dinner to people who never been to schools and seen dinner only on fortunate days.

This mercy towards the criminals who kill your kinsmen is just yet another attribute present in some humans. It is not IMO inherently good or bad. But IMO statements like "t is this mercy that makes us different from such people" are IMO just a manifestation of an holier-than-thou
bias.

 

[micromass]

I have said this many times earlier, no one is different. You are comparing people who never seen anything worst than not getting a dessert for their dinner to people who never been to schools and seen dinner only on fortunate days.

Not everybody who is unfortunate and never go to school turns into a mass murderer. And some people, who were incredibly lucky, did turn out to be monsters. What makes somebody a mass murder, I don't know: indoctrination, genetics, maybe other causes??

All I want to say is that I feel happy to feel compassion to other human beings, and for some reason, some people don't feel that compassion. I do think there's a difference...

 

[DanP]

I don't make that distinction. Again, that's just me.

IMO this is just a story of sheep,wolves and sheepdogs . This is why I posted Col. Grossman's link. The sheep will always feel mercy towards the wolf who slaughtered it's sisters. It's its nature.

 

[DanP]

I do think there's a difference...

There is a difference indeed. But do you honestly call yourself better than the ones who do not feel this mercy towards a killer? Superior in any way ? To profess , and I paraphrase, that "this mercy makes you different from a terrorist" is IMO a form of hinting that those which do not care oare not any different from a terrorist. Is this fair ? Do you really believe this ?

Are you sure it's not just a self-serving bias or a form of a cognitive dissonance resolved by justifying your more merciful nature as better, more human, then the nature of the others who don't care a killer was shot ?

 

[micromass]

IMO this is just a story of sheep,wolves and sheepdogs . This is why I posted Col. Grossman's link. The sheep will always feel mercy towards the wolf who slaughtered it's sisters. It's its nature.

You need to realize that there are no wolves out there. The wolves are just other people who are looking out for their own people and believes. What is a wolf in one peoples eye, becomes a sheepdog in anothers. Once you understand that every person just tries to live his life with the tools given to them and that every person feels pain, misery, friendship, there is no other way IMO to feel compassionate for him.

Not all people are thesame, but I do think that all deserve compassion...

 

[DanP]

You need to realize that there are no wolves out there.

Do tell this to the families of the nearly 3000 victims of 9/11. To the families of the hundreds of victims of 2004 Madrid train bombings. To the decapitated journalists/contractors/whatever. To the men killed and to the women raped on streets.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

quoted from On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

Once you understand that every person just tries to live his life with the tools given to them and that every person feels pain, misery, friendship, there is no other way IMO to feel compassionate for him.

I get you. Google "Eugene Armstrong". See what tools some use :P I agree that every person feels misery , friendship whatever. However some would also kill you in a blink of an eye. Rape your women, behead the sons of your country. Do the math, please. It is denial IMO, to focus on partial attributes of others. Look at the whole picture. Oh, the poor be-header, he also has friends, feels miserably sometimes and also has a mother who will cry for him :P

Besides, you cleverly avoided my question. Do you consider yourself better than your fellow humans who happen to not feel mercy for killers ?

 

[micromass]

Besides, you cleverly avoided my question. Do you consider yourself better than your fellow humans who happen to not feel mercy for killers ?

No I don't feel better than anybody. I tought this was quite clear from my response.