Changing distribution when going through a potential

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of atomic distributions when subjected to external forces, particularly in the context of thermal equilibrium and the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. Participants explore whether it is possible to adapt the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution to account for anisotropic conditions resulting from forces like gravity, and how to describe systems that may be out of equilibrium.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that atoms in thermal equilibrium follow a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution but questions how to adapt this distribution when subjected to a directional force, such as gravity.
  • Another participant argues that an external force does not necessarily take a system out of equilibrium, using gravity as an example where local equilibrium can still be maintained despite large-scale gradients.
  • There are mentions of steady states arising from external interactions, with examples from laser cooling where different temperatures can exist in different directions, leading to non-Gaussian distributions.
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about how the velocity distribution is affected by flow conditions, noting that statistical thermodynamics has studied this in the context of gas viscosity.
  • Further inquiry is made about how to transform the initial distribution function when a significant external force is applied, particularly in scenarios where local equilibrium is maintained.
  • Questions arise regarding how to describe the distribution of a larger system when local regions can be characterized by a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the impact of external forces on equilibrium states, with some asserting that equilibrium can still be locally maintained while others suggest that significant forces lead to out-of-equilibrium conditions. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views on the adaptation of distribution functions under these conditions.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions about the scale of forces and their effects on equilibrium, as well as the specifics of how distributions can be transformed or adapted in various scenarios.

TheCanadian
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If we had a a sample of atoms in thermal equilibrium at a temperature, T, it would approximately follow a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution and be isotropic. But if we now subject these atoms to a force in one direction (e.g. gravity, perhaps near a dense object), it will take the system out of equilibrium. But is there a (simple) way to now continue considering the distribution function for these atoms subject to this force? Can the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution be adopted in form to one where the atoms are anisotropic with net velocity/acceleration in a particular direction? Or are there no well-defined distributions in such a case of being out equilibrium, and the characteristics of the sample would have to be considered at the level of each atom?
 
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@Chestermiller has much more experience on this subject than I do, but here is my understanding.

First, you say that an external force will take the system out of equilibrium. This is not necessarily the case, and gravity is a good example here. You can still consider that air is locally at equilibrium, even though you have density and temperature gradients on large scales.

There are some cases where the external interaction will lead to a steady state instead of an equilibrium condition. In that case, you need to consider the specifics of the system. For instance, I know of cases in laser cooling where you get different temperatures in different directions (e.g., following a mostly Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution along and perpendicular to the laser axis, but with different temperatures) to distributions that are non-Gaussian (look up, for instance, Lévy statistics).
 
DrClaude said:
@Chestermiller has much more experience on this subject than I do, but here is my understanding.

First, you say that an external force will take the system out of equilibrium. This is not necessarily the case, and gravity is a good example here. You can still consider that air is locally at equilibrium, even though you have density and temperature gradients on large scales.

There are some cases where the external interaction will lead to a steady state instead of an equilibrium condition. In that case, you need to consider the specifics of the system. For instance, I know of cases in laser cooling where you get different temperatures in different directions (e.g., following a mostly Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution along and perpendicular to the laser axis, but with different temperatures) to distributions that are non-Gaussian (look up, for instance, Lévy statistics).
I agree with everything in your 2nd paragraph regarding static equilibrium. I'm not familiar with how the velocity distribution is perturbed when there is flow, although the statistical thermodynamics of this has been studied in deriving the viscosity of gases under flow conditions.
 
Interesting, thank you for those examples of external interactions resulting in a steady state.

DrClaude said:
First, you say that an external force will take the system out of equilibrium. This is not necessarily the case, and gravity is a good example here. You can still consider that air is locally at equilibrium, even though you have density and temperature gradients on large scales.

Well if the force was large enough that it would be out of equilibrium even at lower scale (e.g. a volume of gas at equilibrium at a temperature ##T_i## now placed a short distance, ##r##, from a small spherical mass of ##10^{30}## kg, how could one adopt/transform the initial distribution function?

I am also curious about how this system with regions in local equilibrium could allow one to consider the larger system. For example, what would the larger system's distribution be if locally it can be described by a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution?
 

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