Characterizations of the Orthogonal Groups _ Tapp, Ch. 3, Section 2

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the characterizations of the orthogonal groups as presented in Kristopher Tapp's book, specifically focusing on Proposition 3.10 in Chapter 3. Participants are exploring the properties of the linear transformation $$\rho_n$$ and its implications for the isomorphism between $$U(n)$$ and its image.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Peter questions how to rigorously prove that $$U(n)$$ is isomorphic to its image $$\rho_n(U(n))$$, expressing uncertainty about both injectivity and surjectivity of $$\rho_n$$.
  • One participant asserts that it is easy to check that $$\rho_n$$ is injective but not surjective, suggesting reflection on the case of $$\rho_1$$ as an example.
  • The same participant references Proposition 2.2, noting that $$\rho_n$$ is a ring homomorphism and applies the first isomorphism theorem to discuss the implications for the kernel and image of $$\rho_n$$.
  • Peter acknowledges a typo in his previous post regarding the surjectivity of $$\rho_n$$, clarifying that he meant to refer to its injectivity instead.
  • Peter expresses gratitude for the clarification regarding the isomorphism and considers the application of the First Isomorphism Theorem for Groups as an alternative approach.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit some agreement on the injectivity of $$\rho_n$$, but there is disagreement regarding its surjectivity, with some participants asserting it is not surjective while others have not reached a consensus on this point.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully resolved the conditions under which $$\rho_n$$ is surjective, and there are references to specific propositions and theorems that may depend on additional definitions or assumptions not fully explored in the discussion.

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I am reading Kristopher Tapp's book: Matrix Groups for Undergraduates.

I am currently focussed on and studying Section 2 in Chapter 3, namely:

"2. Several Characterizations of the Orthogonal Groups".

I need help in fully understanding some important remarks following Proposition 3.10.

Section 2 in Ch. 3, including Proposition 3.10 reads as follows:https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/3996
https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/3997

Near to the bottom of the above text, after the statement of Proposition 3.10, we read:" ... ... Since $$U(n)$$ is isomorphic to its image, $$\rho_n ( U(n) )$$, ... ... "My question is how do we know that $$U(n)$$ is isomorphic to its image, $$\rho_n ( U_n) )$$ ... ... indeed, further ... how do we rigorously prove that $$U(n)$$ is isomorphic to its image, $$\rho_n ( U(n) )$$?I note in passing that Proposition 2.2 on page 25 of Tapp's book (see below for details) proves that $$\rho_n$$ is a linear transformation ... and I also note that intuitively $$\rho_n$$ would seem to be injective (but how on Earth do we prove it?) ... but I have no idea of how to prove the surjectivity of $$\rho_n$$ in the case of $$U(n) $$... ... I hope someone can help ...

Peter
***NOTE***

Tapp introduces $$\rho_n$$ in Section 1 of Ch. 2 (pages 24-25) ... so I am providing these pages as follows:View attachment 3998
View attachment 3999
 
Last edited:
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Hi Peter,

In my first replie in post
http://mathhelpboards.com/linear-abstract-algebra-14/rotations-complex-matrices-real-matrices-proof-tapp-proposition-2-2-a-14380.html

I told you it was easy to check that $\rho_{n}$ was injective but NOT SURJECTIVE, reflect on it taking $\rho_{1}$ as an example.

What you have in Proposition 2.2 is that $\rho_{n}:\mathcal{M}_{n}(\Bbb{C})\longrightarrow \mathcal{M}_{2n}\Bbb{R}$ is a ring homomorphism, so we can apply first isomorphis theorem, which says that
$\begin{array}{cccc}\bar{\rho_{n}}:&\mathcal{M}_{n}(\Bbb{C})/Ker(\rho_{n}) &\longrightarrow& Im(\rho_{n})\\
& A+Ker(\rho_{n}) & \mapsto & \rho_{n}(A) \end{array}$

Is a ring isomorphism, but we know that $\rho_{n}$ is injective, so $Ker(\rho_{n})=\{0\}$
 
Fallen Angel said:
Hi Peter,

In my first replie in post
http://mathhelpboards.com/linear-abstract-algebra-14/rotations-complex-matrices-real-matrices-proof-tapp-proposition-2-2-a-14380.html

I told you it was easy to check that $\rho_{n}$ was injective but NOT SURJECTIVE, reflect on it taking $\rho_{1}$ as an example.

What you have in Proposition 2.2 is that $\rho_{n}:\mathcal{M}_{n}(\Bbb{C})\longrightarrow \mathcal{M}_{2n}\Bbb{R}$ is a ring homomorphism, so we can apply first isomorphis theorem, which says that
$\begin{array}{cccc}\bar{\rho_{n}}:&\mathcal{M}_{n}(\Bbb{C})/Ker(\rho_{n}) &\longrightarrow& Im(\rho_{n})\\
& A+Ker(\rho_{n}) & \mapsto & \rho_{n}(A) \end{array}$

Is a ring isomorphism, but we know that $\rho_{n}$ is injective, so $Ker(\rho_{n})=\{0\}$
Hi Fallen Angel,

Thanks for the post ...

MY APOLOGIES! I made what was essentially a typo in my post ... I meant "injective" ... but for some strange reason that I cannot explain (mind you it is late here in Tasmania ... ), I typed "surjective" ... ...

I have now edited my post ...

Again ... sorry about the error ... now reflecting on $$\rho_n$$ as a ring homomorphism ... ...

Thanks for your help ...

Peter
 
Peter said:
Hi Fallen Angel,

Thanks for the post ...

MY APOLOGIES! I made what was essentially a typo in my post ... I meant "injective" ... but for some strange reason that I cannot explain (mind you it is late here in Tasmania ... ), I typed "surjective" ... ...

I have now edited my post ...

Again ... sorry about the error ... now reflecting on $$\rho_n$$ as a ring homomorphism ... ...

Thanks for your help ...

Peter
Thanks for the help in showing that $$\overline{ \rho}_n$$ is an isomorphism ... allows me to move on through Tapp's textbook with more confidence ...

Appreciate your help!

Peter***EDIT***

Alternatively ... Presumably we could have used the First Isomorphism Theorem for Groups ... ... is that correct?

Peter
 
Last edited:

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