News China-Japan Soccer Rivalry: World Cup Consequences?

[Dagenais]

From http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/news_Story.asp?ID=94091

Chinese fans harassed the Japanese team through much of the tournament as they vented resentment for Japan's brutal invasion of China during the Second World War. On Saturday night, as at earlier matches, Chinese fans booed while the Japanese national anthem was played.


Japan's sports daily, Suponichi, plastered a full-page photo of the celebrating team across its front page, declaring that the team's exploits ``Silenced the jeers of 65,000 people.''

I understand that this is soccer and that soccer fans are known to do extremely crazy things but this is getting very personal.

Japan should really watch what they say in their newspapers, as in, don't provoke China. China, or at least the Chinese fans should hold their temper and realize it's a soccer game.

Obviously, the Chinese are still angry about the WWII incidents, and I don't blame them. However, the Japanese embassy in Beijing had to be sealed off.

Riot cops are not uncommon after big soccer matches, but many Japanese fans were unable to leave and fights with the police occured.

Do you think this will amount to anything bigger? What will happen in the next Asia cup?

Note:, this belongs in World Affairs because it is an affair involving China and Japan, two Countries in this World, involving previous world affairs. It's sports, but still...

 

[jimmy p]

Probably the same thing will happen in the next Asia Cup. It has been running for a while now and there is always an animosity between countries like that. Take Turkey and England. Great football hatred there. Or England and Germany, as the old chant goes "Two world wars and one world cup". It's football, and hooligans are everywhere across the world giving the beautiful game a bad name.

 

[Dagenais]

Probably the same thing will happen in the next Asia Cup. It has been running for a while now and there is always an animosity between countries like that. Take Turkey and England. Great football hatred there. Or England and Germany, as the old chant goes "Two world wars and one world cup". It's football, and hooligans are everywhere across the world giving the beautiful game a bad name.

I'm not a soccer fan, so I wouldn't know.

However, do those Countries throw racist comments, and attack their own police?

 

[jimmy p]

Oh yeah, it happens all the time. There was a period when England was having trouble with eastern European countries because they had black players, and the Eastern bloc fans would make monkey noises every time they came near the crowd. All fans seem to attack the police, and most of the abuse is probably due to racism which can cause the fights.

 

[Saint]

We hate japan because she killed many chinese in World War II.
They are barbaric.

 

[Civilian2]

I supported China to win the Asia Cup at first. I've lived there whilst studying the language and am quite familiar with the place.

After seeing the treatment of Japanese team at the hands of Chinese fans I dumped my support of China immediately and cheered on Japan for all I was worth. They deserved to win after having to play their matches in such hostile conditions. They showed a lot of character to instead of crumble, plug away and emerge with the cup.

Surely the current generation of Japanese people should not be blamed for their ancestor's faults? Holding a grudge is one thing, as is not forgetting the past- but I've lost counts of howmany times when I was in China a Chinese person would irrationally spout hatred of the Japanese people. It's one hell of a grudge I tell you. Dont' get we wrong, I totally condemn the actions of WWII and the pain and suffering that China and the Chinese people were subjected to, but if you encounter the irrational babble believe me, it comes across pretty immature at this stage.

 

[Prometheus]

We hate japan because she killed many chinese in World War II.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Forgive me for disbelieving your claim to speak for all Chinese.

They are barbaric.

It is always easier to cry about others. China, of course, has never acted so barbaric in its history, has it.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Let's just accept up front that all nations are barbaric at times and move on from there, shall we?

 

[Nereid]

I supported China to win the Asia Cup at first. I've lived there whilst studying the language and am quite familiar with the place.

After seeing the treatment of Japanese team at the hands of Chinese fans I dumped my support of China immediately and cheered on Japan for all I was worth. They deserved to win after having to play their matches in such hostile conditions. They showed a lot of character to instead of crumble, plug away and emerge with the cup.

Surely the current generation of Japanese people should not be blamed for their ancestor's faults? Holding a grudge is one thing, as is not forgetting the past- but I've lost counts of howmany times when I was in China a Chinese person would irrationally spout hatred of the Japanese people. It's one hell of a grudge I tell you. Dont' get we wrong, I totally condemn the actions of WWII and the pain and suffering that China and the Chinese people were subjected to, but if you encounter the irrational babble believe me, it comes across pretty immature at this stage.

Where did you study? My impression is that the intensity of feeling varies greatly from place to place in China. Did you have a chance to listen to some of the older generation's personal stories of their time under Japanese occupation?

Saint: which province in China is your home?

There's a serious issue here - how does a community deal with horrors like the rape of Nanjing, Rwanda, Bosnia, Palestine? How do individuals 'get over' the rage, bitterness, hatred?

From what little I've read, some things seem to help (e.g. the Truth & Reconcilliation activities in South Africa, restitution by perpetrators such Germany after WW II). Re Japan and China (and also Japan and Korea), it would seem that sincere statements of apology would go a long way, as would greater accuracy in the history texts which Japanese schoolkids study, and a more conciliatory approach than honouring convicted war criminals.

 

[Prometheus]

My impression is that the intensity of feeling varies greatly from place to place in China.

There is another factor at work. In China, it is not considered poor behavior to cheer wildly for the home team and jeer loudly at the opposing team. Claiming that the reason to jeer Japan is due to an act of history is not necessarily an accurate statement.

 

[Civilian2]

Perhaps. I suppose there are many factors to consider. I don know that at the Uni I studied at though, the Japanese students were advised to pretend they were Korean to avoid possible troubles in the country.

I studied.. wait for it... at Nanjing University. So I suppose I was in an extreme place to witness the ill feeling.

I agree about reconciliation though. Problem is, I understand the Japanese still deny certain units during that war that carried out gruesome experiments etc on Chinese people. Furthermore, their school textbooks, are a long way off teaching the younger generations the terible nature of that part of their history. So yes, I agree that some degree of pissed offfedness (for lack of a better word) is warranted.

But at the end of the day, the way I've seen a lot of Chinese people refer to Japanese does not separate past from present. A thing that most people I know have managed to do with Germany.

 

[Dagenais]

It is always easier to cry about others. China, of course, has never acted so barbaric in its history, has it.

Would you like to gave us an example where China attacked another Country, raping their people, cutting their heads off and killing 300,000 people? Think hard before you reply to this. Make sure you find an event that has just as many people killed from another Country - just as cruely too. Since you claim that China has been just as barbaric, you should be able to back-up your claims.

What's even worse is that some right-wing organizations in Japan claim this never happened. Sick and disgusting. Doing something like that and not having the balls to admit it.

 

[Prometheus]

Think hard before you reply to this. Make sure you find an event that has just as many people killed from another Country - just as cruely too. Since you claim that China has been just as barbaric, you should be able to back-up your claims.

Oh. Your conditions are so intimidating. Can I back up my claims? What a difficult challenge. Even though you tell me to think hard, perhaps a few examples off the top of my head might suffice.

I notice that you say they must be killed from another country, thereby ruling out domestic examples such as Qin Shi-Huang, the first emperor of China, who cut off hundreds and hundreds of thousands of heads at a time, many times. He once cut off 400,000 heads, after they had surrendered. Do you consider this sufficiently cruel as to be on a par for cruelty? I don't know why you disallow domestic examples, however, since China's domestic cruelty many, many times over the millennia should be fair game. Perhaps as well when you say "another" country, you are ruling out Taiwan, where Chiang Kai-Shek killed large numbers of locals, stole their country, and relegated the survivors to second rate citizens for a generation. I don't think that he cut off their heads, however.

Would you like to gave us an example where China attacked another Country, raping their people, cutting their heads off and killing 300,000 people?

You are using absolute numbers and specific methods of cruelty. Is that really fair? Isn't proportional numbers of people and equivalent methods sufficient for you?

How about Vietnam? How about Tibet? How about Mongolia?

Are you asking me this question because you really do not know how incredibly cruel and ruthless China has been to its enemies on many occasions over the millennia, or because you want to knitpick and say that China's incredible cruelty to its own people, to Mongolia, to Tibet, etc. was not quite as bad as Nanjing, and therefore should not be considered significant?

 

[Prometheus]

What's even worse is that some right-wing organizations in Japan claim this never happened. Sick and disgusting. Doing something like that and not having the balls to admit it.

I think that your response is extremely unwarranted. Are you Chinese?

Do you think that the Americans teach in schools that germ warfare was used against the Indians? Do you think that the Australians teach what they did to the Aborigines? Do you think that China teaches that their "first emperor", Qin Shi-Huang, for all of his wonderful achievements and significant contributions, was a ruthless and extremely curel and brutal destroyer of people?

Yes, I think that while your sentiment might be good, that your words here are uncalled for, unless you are Chinese and old enough to have lived through the event in question.

 

[Dagenais]

Are you Chinese?

Are you Japanese?

Do you think that the Americans teach in schools that germ warfare was used against the Indians? Do you think that the Australians teach what they did to the Aborigines? Do you think that China teaches that their "first emperor", Qin Shi-Huang, for all of his wonderful achievements and significant contributions, was a ruthless and extremely curel and brutal destroyer of people?

Japan has had a history of completely dyning their faults in World War 2.

A reason why the movie Pearl Harbor in Japan mentioned little about Japans attack, instead of a love story

If the movie portrays Japan in a negative way," he says, "it won't be a hit."

What a surprise! I guess the Japanese have absolutely no problem ignoring their history!

The Americans and Germans don't deny their faults in World War II. The US will teach about slave history and what they did to the Natives.

Japan has been known to cover up their history of violence and aggression.

Chiang Kai-Shek

You mean the guy who lead the war to resist Japan? The same Japan that invaded his Country and killed hundred thousands of his people in the most cruelest manner? Japan killed about 250,000 of his soldiers and you dare to mention his name in defense of Japan? Have you no shame?!

I notice that you say they must be killed from another country, thereby ruling out domestic examples

Yes. No domestic examples. He ruled from 246BC to 248. You didn't even come close to a decent comparison.

Beheading in 246BC was a lot more common than in the mid 1900's. They didn't have firearms to execute back them like the Japanese did in 1945. Sick that you can even compare the two.

Remember the gollutine, first used in 1792 to effectively kill people? They didn't have that in 246BC! But they did when Japan invaded China, but I guess they didn't give a crap.:

Wikipedia:
The basis for his recommendation is believed to have been his perception that it was a humane form of execution, contrasting with the methods used in pre-revolutionary, ancien régime France. In France, before the guillotine, members of the nobility were beheaded with a sword or axe

Sword? That sounds like what the Japanese did. I guess they didn't care about being humane. Then again, they did rape their victums before killing them. Of course, to you, ever Country has done something just as bad crueling killing 300,000 people.

 

[Prometheus]

Are you Japanese?

Very cute. I was asking because I can't understand your degree of emotion if you are not Chinese. You did not answer the question I notice.

Japan has had a history of completely dyning their faults in World War 2.

I agree, but this is completely beside the point of my last post.

The Americans and Germans don't deny their faults in World War II. The US will teach about slave history and what they did to the Natives.

You use the future tense. Good for you. If you used the present or past tense, I would not believe you. You say teach, as in school. You are wrong.

Yes. No domestic examples. He ruled from 246BC to 248. You didn't even come close to a decent comparison.

I am sorry that you are so blind. As well, both of your dates are incorrect. You rule out all domestic examples on the basis of the one that I gave? Mao did not kill many of his own people either, did he? Yes, he does not count either, I am sure. Or the many examples between these two people. You didn't even come close to a decent point to provide an exampe for.

Beheading in 246BC was a lot more common than in the mid 1900's. They didn't have firearms to execute back them like the Japanese did in 1945. Sick that you can even compare the two.

Your response is sick, I do agree. You are not making sense. I provide you an example where more than your 300,000 were beheaded at a single time, and you pretend to be sick, what a joke, at the mention of the example that you disregard. Objective, aren't you.

Remember the gollutine, first used in 1792 to effectively kill people? They didn't have that in 246BC! But they did when Japan invaded China, but I guess they didn't give a crap.:

I fail to understand your last phrase, as it is completely unrelated to your earlier sentences.

That sounds like what the Japanese did. I guess they didn't care about being humane. Then again, they did rape their victums before killing them.

I have not once denied that what the Japanese did was horrible. What I did say is that the incdent was not an isolated event in the history of mankind.

Of course, to you, ever Country has done something just as bad crueling killing 300,000 people.

You have not commented on most of my examples. Why not? Do you accept them or reject them? To you, Japan is the ultimate in evil, and the behavior of no other country need be examined. You seem very emotional on this issue, and quite irrational. Given this unfortunate fact, there is no point in continuing this discussion and let you rant on.

 

[Dagenais]

I was asking because I can't understand your degree of emotion if you are not Chinese.

What kind of screwed up logic is that?

Cacausian Americans have felt sorrow for African-American slaves. Do they have to be black slaves to show emotion?

You say teach, as in school. You are wrong.

They do teach about American slavery in the United States. In 8th grade United States History as well as in 11th Grade Unitied States History.

As well, both of your dates are incorrect.[/quote

He was still a King during the date I mentioned. And the dates don't really matter - China still didn't have guns during his time.

From Wikipedia.org

He reigned from 246 BCE to 238 BCE as king of Qin under a regent, to 221 BCE without a regent, and as emperor of China from 221 BCE to 210 BCE.

You rule out all domestic examples on the basis of the one that I gave

I rule out domestic examples because China isn't harming any country besides itself. The fact that you are so focused on domestic examples show that you cannot find a decent event in history where China invaded a country and cruely killed hundreds of thousands.

Japan in a show of extreme aggression, has invaded a country and killed 300,000 people.

I fail to understand your last phrase, as it is completely unrelated to your earlier sentences.

It demonstrates that the Japanese could have used less crueler methods to fight its war against China, as they were available.

However, these methods were not available in 200BCE.

I provide you an example where more than your 300,000 were beheaded at a single time, and you pretend to be sick, what a joke, at the mention of the example that you disregard. Objective, aren't you.

So you're saying that getting beheaded was more common in the 1940's than the years BCE? I'm not justifying the deaths Qin Shi caused, but it wasn't like there were other ways back then to kill people. He couldn't use firearms like Japan could have.

Getting beheaded is the most unhonorable way to die. Japan new that, and that's why they killed using that specific method.

You realized that perfectly, but instead accused me of "being sick". Stop wasting my time with your inane nonsense.

You're the one sick and desperate enough to use Chiang Kai-Shek as a defense for Japan. After they killed hundred thousands of his soldiers too. That's damn sick.

Your response is sick, I do agree.

No, that wouldn't be agreeing with me. Maybe you should read that part of my post again, you seem confused. Either you misunderstood or you're using an extremely sad tactic to carry whatever point you don't have.

You have not commented on most of my examples.

Most of them are not examples of China attacking another country and killing hundreds of thousands in a cruel manner, and yet I've replied to two of your examples. I asked for certain examples, and you didn't give them. You're lucky I bothered replying at all.

If you're not going to make decent comparisons, I'm not going to bother with a reply.

 

[Prometheus]

What kind of screwed up logic is that?

My, you sure are touchy. Not very eloquent, but certainly touchy.

Cacausian Americans have felt sorrow for African-American slaves. Do they have to be black slaves to show emotion?

Your response is far beyond showing emotion. You are irrational to the point of blindness.

They do teach about American slavery in the United States. In 8th grade United States History as well as in 11th Grade Unitied States History.

Sure. In detail, I bet. Tell me, based on your education at school, on what tribes did the U.S. use germ warfare. Just the examples that you learned about in school will do.

I rule out domestic examples because China isn't harming any country besides itself.

I said that they were cruel. It was you who listed all of the specific conditions. How does harming their own people make them any less cruel?

The fact that you are so focused on domestic examples show that you cannot find a decent event in history where China invaded a country and cruely killed hundreds of thousands.

You are a joke. I provided a number of examples. That means more that one, in case you don't understand. You have yet to respond to my examples. In fact, this is twice now that you have ignored them. Go back and read my post. You are the one who is so focused on your slant that you forgot to read my post.

Japan in a show of extreme aggression, has invaded a country and killed 300,000 people.

Thank you for sharing this, for the thirtieth time. You need not do this, since I read your posts. You are the one who has not read my posts.

However, these methods were not available in 200BCE.

Another complete misunderstanding on your part. Complete misunderstanding. Cutting off a head and taking it back to show the leader is not the easiest way to kill people. Stabbing them and leaving the bodies with their heads attached is easier. The heads were removed as an act of cruelty.

So you're saying that getting beheaded was more common in the 1940's than the years BCE? I'm not justifying the deaths Qin Shi caused, but it wasn't like there were other ways back then to kill people. He couldn't use firearms like Japan could have.

Your use of the name Qin Shi tells me that you know nothing of that era, as this is not a valid way to phrase his name. No surprise here. Are you serious? There was no other way to kill people back then but to ensure that the heads were removed from the bodies. Yeah, right. Read the garbage that you are spouting.

Getting beheaded is the most unhonorable way to die. Japan new that, and that's why they killed using that specific method.

Earth to Dagonais. If you are saying that Japan was cruel, I agree with you. If you say that their act was the cruelest in history, your complete lack of understanding is showing through.

You realized that perfectly, but instead accused me of "being sick".

I merely repeated the garbagge that you were spouting. If you don't like to hear it, then don't say it first.

Stop wasting my time with your inane nonsense.

Look, boy. You are acting like a child. This garbage that you spout may work with other boys your age. If you would learn to think, and to read my posts, and to quit acting like a baby, then perhaps you wouldn't write this baby talk.

Most of them are not examples of China attacking another country and killing hundreds of thousands in a cruel manner, and yet I've replied to two of your examples.

Which 2? I only see your response to Qin Shi-Huang.

I asked for certain examples, and you didn't give them.

You asked for a highly limited set of conditions, as though you have a lock on what accounts for cruelty. I responsed with several examples. You ignored all but one example, and pretend that you have responded to all of them.

You're lucky I bothered replying at all.

My but you really are a little child. Look at the baby talk that you come up with. Please don't reply any more. Go cry to your mother. She might take this baby talk from you. What a cry baby.

If you're not going to make decent comparisons, I'm not going to bother with a reply.

If you are going to ignore my examples, then please don't reply. What about Taiwan, Vietnam, Tibet, and Mongolia?

Are you for real?

 

[Prometheus]

You mean the guy who lead the war to resist Japan? The same Japan that invaded his Country and killed hundred thousands of his people in the most cruelest manner?

I missed this before. So, you did speak to a second of my examples. You did manage to avoid my entire argument, and instead respond by showing your complete lack of understanding, and by side-stepping the entire point of our discussion. "lead the war to resist Japan" What a joke you are.

You say that Chiang Kai-Shek lead the war to resist Japan. From this, I understand that you do not know much about Chinese history. Your first sentence above is a complete mistake on your part. I suggest that you read something about this era of history.

Japan killed about 250,000 of his soldiers and you dare to mention his name in defense of Japan?

Your melodrama is exciting, but your lack of any understanding of history is excceded only by the foolish way that you phrase your argument. You really know nothing about this era in Chinese history either, do you. I notice that you completely avoided the entire point that I made anyway, about the cruelty of Chiang Kai-Shek toward the native Taiwanese. Or, do you believe that they welcomed him as a hero.

Have you no shame?!

Only a little child could come up with such a childish phrase. Get a life. Do you really think that this gibberish will be an effective way to hide the fact that you have ignored the entire meat of my point, and instead produced claims as ridiculous as they are irrelevant to the argument that we are holding?

 

[Nereid]

Let's just accept up front that all nations are barbaric at times and move on from there, shall we?

Dagenais, Prometheus: the pages of history are soaked with blood and tears, and strong cases can be made against a great many nations and peoples, perhaps all.

Wrt strong anti-Japanese feelings among some Chinese, given that the 1930s and 1940s are fairly recent, it's perhaps not surprising that some have such feelings.

However, many others throughout the world have also suffered greatly in the same period, and more recently; some of those who've suffered seem to have been able to move on (e.g. in South Africa), others still harbour deep feelings even after more than a century (e.g. Armenians). Some say that the common thread is the willingness of the perpetrators of the horror to acknowledge their actions, and to do so sincerely.

Do you have some constructive suggestions? Are you aware of other methods of resolution? If so, which were successful.

 

[Galileo]

I think it will take at least a generation before the hatred against a country who commited warcrimes will diminish. National trauma's are easier to overcome than personal ones.
As time goes on, the people who have served in WWII will die and there will be no one left who is responsible, and no one left who you can blame.
To me, it seems silly to be angry at a country. You can only get angry at people.
In the Netherlands, hatred against Germany (or Germans) is fading quickly. Especially among the bright young people who have their eyes on the future.
There are still (very few I'm sure) Germans who deny the events of the holocaust as it is recorded. These people are simply fools.
Hopefully the Japanese government will fully admit and accept the atrocities they have committed and teach it to the children/students in history, so they can learn from it.
I guess that is all they can do. I surely resent the Japanese government for denying any historical facts, but I see no resolve in jeering at Japanese sports teams, or
booh-ing when their national anthem is played. The soccer team isn't responsible for Japan's action during WWII or their government's decisions, just as I am not responisble for the extinction of the dodo.

 

[Prometheus]

the pages of history are soaked with blood and tears, and strong cases can be made against a great many nations and peoples, perhaps all.

Most definitely.

Wrt strong anti-Japanese feelings among some Chinese, given that the 1930s and 1940s are fairly recent, it's perhaps not surprising that some have such feelings.

It is not at all surprising. There are many reasons for this, as it is a complex situation with complex human reactions involved. The closer that people are to such event, in this case young people are only removed by a single generation, the more prone to anti-whoeveritwas feelings the people are.

 

[russ_watters]

However, many others throughout the world have also suffered greatly in the same period, and more recently; some of those who've suffered seem to have been able to move on (e.g. in South Africa), others still harbour deep feelings even after more than a century (e.g. Armenians). Some say that the common thread is the willingness of the perpetrators of the horror to acknowledge their actions, and to do so sincerely.

How about Germany? For them to have become full members of the world community so soon after WWII (really, by the early '50s) is extrordinary.

 

[Nereid]

How about Germany? For them to have become full members of the world community so soon after WWII (really, by the early '50s) is extrordinary.

Indeed. Perhaps someone who knows the relevant history well can tell us what Germany did in the way of things like restitution, sincere apologies, openness about recent history (e.g. contents of school history textbooks), and so on.

 

[Prometheus]

Perhaps someone who knows the relevant history well can tell us what Germany did in the way of things like restitution, sincere apologies, openness about recent history (e.g. contents of school history textbooks), and so on.

How relevant do you think that these two situations are?

Germany started a war, was devasted by war, lost the war, was assisted by foreign countries, and rejoined the European civiization of which it has always been a part.

I believe that this situation is far more conducive to forgiveness and return to the group for Germany than the situation in China. There is far more to consider than simply the fact that one country committed some atrocities on another country. The context is also extremely important, and it is very differen from Germany, in my opinion.

Could you explain your motives for your recent couple of posts here?

 

[Nereid]

Could you explain your motives for your recent couple of posts here?

Why is it that in some cases people - individuals, groups, 'countries' - can move on from the horrors of war etc? And in others, they can't? I'd like to know, and I've found that PF members are able to answer quite a range of difficult questions, so why not ask here too? Perhaps, when next I go to China, I could float some of the ideas I've picked up here?

Why do you ask?

 

[Prometheus]

Why is it that in some cases people - individuals, groups, 'countries' - can move on from the horrors of war etc? And in others, they can't?

In some cases the extenuating circumastances are more conducive to forgiveness and getoveritness than in other cases.

Perhaps, when next I go to China, I could float some of the ideas I've picked up here?

Have you been to China, and are you planning to go again? Where did you go?

I think that a good idea that you migh float is to talk with govenrment propaganda officials, and suggest that let the flames simmer, rather than stoke them.

Why do you ask?

Because I think that the situations are extremely different. There are valuable lessons to be learned by analyzing success stories, I agree. However, I don't think that this thread was ever intended to be an attempt to solve this problem, which is nevertheless not possble here and now, in my opinion.

 

[jimmy p]

Ok, this is about a China vs. Japan football match that happened a couple of weeks back. The blood-feud between the fans is over. I don't even think football hooligans would go into as much detail as you guys!

 

[outsider]

i've read this whole discussion... and it's evident that Dagenais and Prometheus are biased... either due to pride or denial or of the like... evading questions and sidestepping issues just like real politicians... this is how we go to war... it's very funny actually... hahahahahah...

Dagenais, you got too emotional and too defensive... why don't you just admit that you are chinese already? There should be no shame about representing your family. At this point whether or not you come out of the closet, it is already apparent to anyone who reads this discussion.

Prometheus, you are a skillful, winding and sidestepping debator. A person like you would probably take this as a complement, but you are simply using the fact that we are all human and make mistakes argument, which downplays an attrocious act. You are the type of perpetrator people should be aware of. The kind of lawyer that gets a killer off the hook based on technicalities of the prosecution. You are likely a slave to money, the class system, and run the rat race selling your soul. Hahaha... youre such a funny lil beach. But you think your so clever. lmao.

As a person who was a bully, I can tell you that there is no virtue in it. I have since been wronged and bullied in return and now know what it means to be on the other side of the coin. We forgive convicts who show remorse and have served time. We find it easier to forgive people who repay for the damages they have caused. Time heals all, so they say... but ask one who has been wronged and they will tell you that they may forgive but forgetting is a totally different story. I can only imagine how many people out there may have it out for me. The list is long and I'm sorry... but for some f-d up reason, I can't swallow my pride. Shame on me. In a strange way, ironically - i am a Jap.

Prometheus, attacking one's education, background, or writing style does not take away from the fact that a crime was committed and sincere apologies have not been made.

I have friends of all races. I have friends who are mixed Chi-panese, and friends who are in Jap-cool person relationships. We all get along, not like how nerds getalong, but like we treat each other like family and speak openly about our feelings. We do not judge and think which race is right, we actually try to understand why things happened the way they did. My Japanese friends do think that something bad did happen, but my Chinese friends don't hold it against them because this was a classic Romeo & Juliet scenerio.

 

[Locrian]

You don't have to be Chinese to be disgusted by the way Japan has behaved since WW2 with respect to their treatment of WW2 history. You could just be reasonably informed and have a sense of concience.

 

[sid_galt]

I rule out domestic examples because China isn't harming any country besides itself.

Cruelty of a country isn't measured in how many countries it invaded or how many foreigners it killed. By doing that, one is accepting the premise that a country is a fundamental unit, that the individuals of a country are inseparable from each other which is wrong.

Cruelty is cruelty whether it is done by a dictator to the people of a country or by one countries people to another countries' people.

Hitler killed 6 million jews. Many of them were germans. Would you honestly say that what Hitler did to the jews who were germans was not cruelty?


Millions have died under Communist slavery in China and free thought is still censored there. If you want to talk in terms of numbers, some Chinese have drained a lot more blood than people of many other countries.

 

[kaos]

Cruelty of a country isn't measured in how many countries it invaded or how many foreigners it killed. By doing that, one is accepting the premise that a country is a fundamental unit, that the individuals of a country are inseparable from each other which is wrong.

Cruelty is cruelty whether it is done by a dictator to the people of a country or by one countries people to another countries' people.

Hitler killed 6 million jews. Many of them were germans. Would you honestly say that what Hitler did to the jews who were germans was not cruelty?


Millions have died under Communist slavery in China and free thought is still censored there. If you want to talk in terms of numbers, some Chinese have drained a lot more blood than people of many other countries.

Errr excuse me , but how did u come up with this?

 

[outsider]

Suppose you have a child. Suppose you do not believe in physical punishment. However, your neighbour sees your child doing something that he sees as morally wrong and thinks he is doing you a favor when he smacks your kid upside the head.

Right / Wrong?

Suppose your kid goes to private school, and the teacher smacks your kid upside the head.

Right / Wrong?

Policeman, busts your kid up real good.

Right / Wrong?

As a parent, we have the right to teach our own children the way we see fit. (This is an old skool way of thinking). In today's world, we are constantly under the supervision of the law & the government. In most cases, they provide good guidance, but there are times when they are wrong. (movie: "I Am Sam")

The United Nations is a political venue for governing governments.

Each country has their own rules, regulations, practices and policies. This is no different than a protestants & catholics. All originated w/ white people from the same continent, using the same rule book, but completely different interpretations.

We all have our own problems and shortfalls. Sometimes it's better to leave each other's kids alone and let their parents do the parenting. Who asked you anyway?

 

[outsider]

Millions have died under Communist slavery in China and free thought is still censored there. If you want to talk in terms of numbers, some Chinese have drained a lot more blood than people of many other countries.

I don't understand why people make such bold statements.

"some" Chinese have drained "a lot more" blood than people of "many other" countries. Unbelievable statement. Where did you go wrong? - nowhere. Where did you go right? - nowhere. What is your point? - Chinese are bad in the big scheme of things because you think so. Then why don't you just say so? Go do something instead of noncontributing the good of all and taking up bytes on a server.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I don't understand why people make such bold statements.

"some" Chinese have drained "a lot more" blood than people of "many other" countries. Unbelievable statement. Where did you go wrong? - nowhere. Where did you go right? - nowhere. What is your point? - Chinese are bad in the big scheme of things because you think so. Then why don't you just say so? Go do something instead of noncontributing the good of all and taking up bytes on a server.

Sid is actually the type of individual who gets suckered by books and statistics as per my first post under the 'Source vs. Content' thread.

He is actually genuinely believing what he is posting and the fact that the Chinese 'deny' it is merely a cover-up to him.

Well it has to be 'true' because The Black Book of Communism and Roderick MacFarquhar say it is true and they are published by Harvard and Oxford press respectively.

He'll never find out that his information is erroneous because he read it in those books, he has no reason to doubt it and he certainly won't be purchasing a new copy of those books any time soon... And so the myth gets perpetuated.

 

[Smurf]

Okay, does the black book of communism actually exist? I've heard several references to that, is it an actual book? Or just a figure of speech?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Okay, does the black book of communism actually exist? I've heard several references to that, is it an actual book? Or just a figure of speech?

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674076087/104-7335484-7967968?v=glance

 

[Daminc]

Just to comment on the obvious

Winners write history. Different generations rewrite history. I doubt there is any historical references that are complete and unbiased.

All major countries have crimes of the past (and present) and will probably continue to do so.

Americans butched most of the indiginous population when they expanded. Britian butched people all over the world when they extended their Empire. Russia, China, Germany, France etc etc etc have all been bad people at one time or another.

If Japan want to clean the slate of there past mistakes and start afresh then so be it. If China want to remember to past to honour the sacrifices then so be it. What's the problem?

 

[russ_watters]

TSM, could you be more specific? Are you saying that things like "The Great Leap Forward" didn't happen or are you just disagreeing about how many millions of people died? Does it really make any difference if it was 10 million or 20 million?

 

[entropy+time=fun]

I personally find it quite disgusting, that the chinese joke and always tend to take an extra inch from Japan. These two nations are very close geographically but they argue and boo over football (i am english) especially when it comes to such patriotism. I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem, this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watchinng from their houses. Its appalling really...


Thankyou,

entropy+time=fun

 

[outsider]

I personally find it quite disgusting, that the chinese joke and always tend to take an extra inch from Japan.

you personally find it disgustng... so who are you? and what chinese joke are you referring? and what is this extra inch you speak of?

These two nations are very close geographically but they argue and boo over football (i am english) especially when it comes to such patriotism.

I have no idea what your point is here. Is there a thought to be considered? - it appears to be "neighbors should not disagree"... if this is your point, then you obviously live in a box of idealisms... are you still in high school?

I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem, this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watchinng from their houses. Its appalling really...

Although booing certainly isn't the higher ground, it does not surprise me at all. If you are a football fan, you should know that during World Cup 2002 (the most recent one), when england played Argentina there was booing from the english fans. I hope you are unappalled.

As far as "this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watching from their houses."- Firstly, this statement cannot be proven... secondly, why would you even say this?

If it sounds like I'm getting personal, I apologize... but if you are not going to advance knowledge or the discussion, then please say nothing. Sidebar opinions should still be supported with real facts or experiences. What would happen if I said Canadians or English Suck? This would become a messy place with all sorts of ugly useless bantor. That is the point I want to make about your post. Its plain thoughtless.

Do yourself a favor and think about what you say before you say it. At this point you don't make a very good football fan, and do not represent england very well. If I were english, I would want you to shut up and stop embarassing my country.

 

[The Smoking Man]

TSM, could you be more specific? Are you saying that things like "The Great Leap Forward" didn't happen or are you just disagreeing about how many millions of people died? Does it really make any difference if it was 10 million or 20 million?

You have not checked the data as presented, I see.

What happened is that the whole observation of history is skewed.

Instead of a spike of deaths now during 'the great leap forward', as the site observes:

The relevant figure is 4.5 per 1000 as is commonly available in publications by the enemies of the Great Leap in power in China today. Indeed, MacFarquhar himself lists the correct figure in a table on page five of the third volume of his book series.

The correct figure for 1960 and other years is listed in common Chinese statistical sources. Using that figure and the others for 1960-2, one would have to extrapolate to arrive at the often-used 30 million figure of bourgeois sources. Just as easily, one could point out without extrapolating the following: 1) The death rate in 1959 was better than in 1952 and about equal to 1953. 2) The death rate in 1961 was even better. 3) The death rate in 1962 was the best seen in the People's Republic of China up to that date. It was only the year 1960 which was worse than any year since Liberation in 1949. If radical politics and collectivization mostly caused the famine, then why did it not hit hardest in 1958 and 1959 in the commune upsurge and instead chose the worst weather year when communes were already dismantled or being dismantled?

A 1984 Associated Press (AP) article against the Great Leap ran again in October, 1999 in the South China Morning Post for the 50th anniversary of the Liberation of China in 1949. Significantly, the article admitted what MIM has been saying -- that the figure of 30 million starved in the Great Leap is only possible by assuming normal birth rates during a tumultuous period where people worked day and night and studied in public meetings in between.

"Basing their calculations on the 1953 population of 583 million and the 1964 total of 695 million, and on normal fertility rates, they concluded that infant mortality and other deaths were much higher than officially reported."(2)

In other words, your statement just went on to prove that you are still willing to attribute deaths to the Great Leap Forward that are actually not out of the ordinary for any other year in that period.

The death rate was proven to be greater in 1952 and actually showed a trend of IMPROVEMENT in the years of the Great Leap Forward and the additional deaths which were attributed to natural calamity in subsequent years (Previously denied because of the sheer numbers stated in MacFarquhar's book) are now more feasable.

Now you tossed out two numbers ... "10 million or 20 million" ... are you deliberately trying to ignore the fact that the error is NOT of a magnitude of 2 as you imply but a magnitude of 10?

His computations were based on 4.5 deaths per 100 where his own charts state that the were 4.5 deaths per 1000.

MacFarquhar claims a 'worst case scenario' of 30 million. Well, if you now compute the deaths as 4.5 in 1000 instead of 4.5 in 100 you would come out with a 'worst case scenario' of 3 million wouldn't you?

The population in 1964 is recorded as 695 million that's .4317% additional deaths added to the standard number shown in the trends.

In plain terms, his numbers made a claim that there were 45 deaths per 1000 which is indeed terrible.

The reality is there were 4.5 deaths per 1000.

Now go here: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004395.html and subtract the birth rate from the death rates.

Surprise!

 

[The Smoking Man]

I personally find it quite disgusting, that the chinese joke and always tend to take an extra inch from Japan. These two nations are very close geographically but they argue and boo over football (i am english) especially when it comes to such patriotism. I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem, this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watchinng from their houses. Its appalling really...


Thankyou,

entropy+time=fun

Ummm ... English fans have been banned from going to the continent.

English fans have been caught with wood with spikes driven through one end to club opposing fans.

I believe we call them 'YOBS'.

You were saying?

 

[DM]

English fans have been caught with wood with spikes driven through one end to club opposing fans.

Indeed, in support to your point we only have to cite Turkey as the city of central havoc between English 'yobs' and other footbal fans.

 

[Dagenais]

Wow, I was just browsing this site to see if there was an interesting discussion about the Russian submarine crisis. Then, I see this post ressurected.

I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem

You're joking me right? This happens all the time in soccer. European fans have even been know to throw racist remarks at black players.

Quebec shouts and 'boos' the Star Spangled Banner at hockey games all the time.

 

[sid_galt]

I don't understand why people make such bold statements.

"some" Chinese have drained "a lot more" blood than people of "many other" countries. Unbelievable statement. Where did you go wrong? - nowhere. Where did you go right? - nowhere. What is your point? - Chinese are bad in the big scheme of things because you think so. Then why don't you just say so? Go do something instead of noncontributing the good of all and taking up bytes on a server.

My point was that in comparision to the West there are many more people out there in the East who have killed and slaughtered a lot more than the West ever has.

And the Chinese aren't bad because I think so. They are bad because history and reality say so.

 

[sid_galt]

The United Nations is a political venue for governing governments.

It is more of an organization that the leaders of a country have made a country join than a political venue for governing governments.

Each country has their own rules, regulations, practices and policies. This is no different than a protestants & catholics. All originated w/ white people from the same continent, using the same rule book, but completely different interpretations.

Rules of law should be based on principles and not on the arbitrary whims of the majority or the ruler or the dictator or the Senate. If the country violates that rights of man then it is morally wrong whether the majority agrees with it or not.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Rules of law should be based on principles and not on the arbitrary whims of the majority or the ruler or the dictator or the Senate. If the country violates that rights of man then it is morally wrong whether the majority agrees with it or not.

USA, Japan?

It IS a two way street.

 

[The Smoking Man]

And the Chinese aren't bad because I think so. They are bad because history and reality say so.

See previous post.

 

[Smurf]

My point was that in comparision to the West there are many more people out there in the East who have killed and slaughtered a lot more than the West ever has.

uhhhh... I disagree. WW1? Nazism? Fascism? Stalinism? The countless deaths European Imperialism caused. I don't know how historical you want to get, so I'll just include everything... The Spanish and English practically wiped out indigenous Americans who are only now beginning to numerally recover (only to have their culture destroyed). More than 20% of the world's population lived and died under the rule of the Roman Empire at it's height, and Rome didn't exactly work hard to keep people alive, or free.