Circuit Element Verification: BJT

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the representation of a BJT (Bipolar Junction Transistor) in circuit diagrams, particularly the inclusion of a capacitor between the base and emitter. Participants explore whether this capacitor is a characteristic of the physical transistor or if it serves a different purpose in circuit analysis, with a focus on both theoretical and practical implications in electronics and digital design.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the capacitor depicted by the professor is a characteristic of the BJT or something else entirely.
  • Another participant suggests that the capacitor might be confused with a battery symbol, referencing external sources like Wikipedia.
  • Some participants note that while there is small capacitance at the base-emitter junction, its effect is often overshadowed by the diode's behavior.
  • The Miller Effect is mentioned as a significant phenomenon that amplifies capacitance effects in audio amplifiers, potentially relevant to the discussion.
  • One participant argues that no additional capacitor is typically attached across the base-emitter junction, as it would short the AC path to ground.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the importance of the base-emitter capacitance is minimal in typical operating conditions, especially at low currents.
  • There is a mention of the frequency response of the transistor and how the base-emitter capacitance might become significant near the transistor's transition frequency.
  • Several participants express uncertainty about the relevance of the capacitor in a digital design context, questioning its importance in calculations or circuit behavior.
  • One participant confirms that the professor has drawn the capacitor multiple times, indicating a consistent representation in class materials.
  • Another participant suggests that the professor's focus on the capacitor may not align with the typical concerns in digital design, where BJTs are less commonly used.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the significance of the capacitor in the BJT model, with some arguing it is not important while others believe it has a role in understanding the transistor's behavior. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the necessity of considering the capacitor in practical applications.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the relevance of the base-emitter capacitance may depend on specific operating conditions and the context of the class (analog vs. digital design). There are also references to the Miller Effect and frequency response, which may not be fully explored in the current discussion.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and professionals in electronics, particularly those studying BJTs, circuit design, and the implications of capacitance in transistor operation.

sandy.bridge
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Hello all,
Just recently my one Professor has been depicting the BJT transistor with a capacitor joining the base and emitter portion of the transistor. The transistor is of npn configuration, however, he has yet to say anything regarding the capacitor. Is this "capacitor" a characteristic of the physical transistor, or..?
Thanks!
 
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There is a small capacitance in that position, but its effect is usually swamped by the forward biassed diode of the base emitter junction.

More likely, he is preparing to tell you about Miller Effect which is an amplified capacitance effect which severely limits the frequency response of audio amplifiers.

The base collector junction has capacitance and this is multiplied by the gain of the amplifier and it appears as a shunt capacitor across the input of the amplifier stage. Very large capacitances can be produced in this way and it is a serious effect.
 
No, it was not a voltage source. There were voltage sources, but he drew the capacitor similar to how these are drawn for the MOSFET, except it was a BJT and there was one capacitor. Unless he was meaning to draw a MOSFET and accidentally drew a BJT.
EET211-Ch6-Figure2.jpg
 
vk6kro said:
There is a small capacitance in that position, but its effect is usually swamped by the forward biassed diode of the base emitter junction.

More likely, he is preparing to tell you about Miller Effect which is an amplified capacitance effect which severely limits the frequency response of audio amplifiers.

The base collector junction has capacitance and this is multiplied by the gain of the amplifier and it appears as a shunt capacitor across the input of the amplifier stage. Very large capacitances can be produced in this way and it is a serious effect.
Interesting. Thanks! I couldn't seem to find anything regarding it.
 
Every pn junction has depletion capacitance and diffusion capacitance (for ac). No one attaches extra cap across base emitter. It shorts the ac path to ground.
 
sandy.bridge said:
No, it was not a voltage source. There were voltage sources, but he drew the capacitor similar to how these are drawn for the MOSFET, except it was a BJT and there was one capacitor. Unless he was meaning to draw a MOSFET and accidentally drew a BJT.
EET211-Ch6-Figure2.jpg

If this is a normal electronics class, I don't understand why he worry about the Cbe! The on resistance is so low that usually nobody ever worry about it. It is totally different from the MOSFET you show. For MOSFET, the Cds is everything, it is the limiting factor for speed and the drive requirement. But BJT is totally different animal. I have studied enough books to confirm this. Yes, there is always a capacitor there, but so what? If your transistor is running 1mA, the on resistance is only 26Ω, takes quite a capacitor to make any different on this baby.

The only thing that this might get important is only when you approach the [itex]f_T\;[/itex] of the transistor that the gain start to drop off because at that frequency the reactance of the Cbe get so low that Z=j26Ω and the gain roll off. But most transistor class don't talk about this. Confirm with the professor is this what he use it for, if not, there is no reason to consider this capacitor.
 
Last edited:
My notes have confirmed 4 instances where he has has drawn the capacitor as described. This class is also a digital design class
 
Have you tried asking your prof?
 
  • #10
sandy.bridge said:
My notes have confirmed 4 instances where he has has drawn the capacitor as described. This class is also a digital design class

There is nothing wrong to draw the capacitor as it is really there! The question is did the professor tell you to worry about it or use it to do calculation? That's where both me and Vk6kro said the cap is not important even though it's there.

If it is a digital class, that already answer my question. He is not talking about [itex]f_T\;[/itex]. So just let it be there in the model. They still use BJT for digital IC? I thought that is so yesterdecade!
 

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