Clocks Within Each Ship in Bell Spaceship Paradox

  • #51
1977ub said:
Can SR "handle acceleration" as I recently read? Can't we take "successive frames" that a particular ship passes through and say something meaningful. (I'm not sure how such an exercise would bear on this. )
Yes you can! In fact, taking "successive frames" is exactly what stevendaryl and I did in our discussions. And it's certainly possible to give a meaningful discussion of the forces that the string "sees" over time, as discussed in detail by stevendaryl and Nugatory.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #52
harrylin said:
In other words, the laws of physics as assumed in SR do not hold.

Could you clarify? Which physical laws assumed in SR do not hold and why?
 
  • #53
1977ub said:
Could you clarify? Which physical laws assumed in SR do not hold and why?
I answered that question in the sentences before the one you ask about... :confused:
Or maybe you overlooked that I was commenting about the use of accelerated frames?
The main physics law for this discussion is that lengths of static objects in inertial frames do not contract without a physical cause. The law of cause and effect is maintained in SR.
 
Last edited:
  • #54
harrylin said:
Note that such a frame is not an inertial frame (you know that certainly very well, but the OP may not be aware of the consequences!).

Yes, that's a good point... thanks. As far as I can tell, that frame is good for little other than showing that the string breaks because that's what strings do when you pull their ends apart. The physics of the string is easy to analyze in that frame, but as soon as you look beyond the string and the two ships it ceases to be helpful.

The non-inertial frame of Einstein's elevator/acceleration/gravity equivalence principle thought-experiment has the same problem that everything else in the universe seems to magically accelerate and length contract... That's why Einstein didn't put any windows in his elevator :smile:
 
  • Like
Likes Stalin Beltran and harrylin
  • #55
1977ub said:
Can SR "handle acceleration" as I recently read? Can't we take "successive frames" that a particular ship passes through and say something meaningful. (I'm not sure how such an exercise would bear on this. )

SR can indeed handle acceleration - google for "Rindler coordinates".

Although there is no inertial frame in which an end of the string remains at rest, there are "momentarily comoving inertial frames" (MCIFs) in which that end of the string is momentarily at rest. These are useful if we want to calculate the apparent positions and speeds of the ships, the ground, and everything else at a particular moment in time (from the point of view of an observer in the ship at that end). They are not, however, especially useful for calculating the increasing separation of the two ships as time passes because the string is only monetarily at rest in these frames.

Note that the earthbound observer in Bell's original statement of the paradox is using a frame that is momentarily comoving with the string - at time zero and only then is the string at rest in this observer's inertial frame.
 
  • #56
It suddenly strikes me that perhaps here the subtle difference should be explained between "MCIF"'s and accelerating frames in SR.
As a matter of fact, this was unclear to me some time ago, and it's probably still not understood by many.

So I'll re-hash what we discussed here above, focusing at that difference.

Using co-moving inertial frames is described in detail in post #22 by stevendaryl. He shut off the engines temporarily so as not to be hindered by acceleration, but that isn't really necessary for small acceleration as I discussed in post #47 . With co-moving inertial frames nothing magical is suggested: firing the rocket engines accelerates the rockets, and not the Earth and the stars. Also nothing happens to the launch pad. In each step a small incremental Lorentz transformation is made to a consecutive inertial frame in order to call that the new rest frame.
This allows to follow during the flight how the string stresses according to static mechanics; however, we never forget (or, we should never forget) that in this approach the rockets are accelerating from rest in the launch pad frame and that nothing happens with the launch pad frame's dimensions; apparent changes to the launch pad must be due to changes in the string's co-moving measurement system, caused by its change of velocity. In the end nothing different can be concluded as when making a single Lorentz transformation from the launch pad frame to the frame in which the string is at the point of breaking. It's essentially the same, but refined by splitting it up in a great number of steps.

Using accelerating frames is described in detail in post #48 by Nugatory. Although it looks very similar to stevendaryl's analysis, in the end Nugatory considered the string as being in rest all the time - the point of view of the accelerating frame. I similarly used the equivalence between gravitational force and inertial force in post #47. The forces on a string at 1g constant acceleration are just the same as those on a vertically held string in the Earth's gravitation, and the stress increase can be perfectly simulated by an increase in the distance between the attachment points in such a rest frame, as was found before by means of Lorentz transformations. Such a mechanical equivalence (according to classical mechanics and SR) is only meant to simulate the forces that act on the string, as experienced by the string; it's perfect for calculating the moment that the string will break.
In Bell's spaceship example the string is not in rest in a gravitational field but accelerates due to the rocket engine's propulsion, and momentum is conserved. If we forget that and pretend that the string was all the time in rest, then we find that the string has the same equilibrium length all the time and the string undergoes classical stretching. Consequently, length contraction plays no role in the related physical interpretation. However, that goes at the cost of a magical change of dimensions of the launch pad and the rest of the Earth - even a magical acceleration of the Earth and the distant stars. You must not look out of the window, and even not look at your fuel gauge!
 
Last edited:
  • #57
May I make a silly question? What are the initial conditions of this paradox? If I am right, the conditions were:
  1. Two identical rockets, and if programmed the program is equal
  2. Both rockets start at the same time, according to the initial reference frame (named S, for example)
  3. Both rockets are tied by a inelastic string, which will break if it is elongated (that is, to the minimum elongation, it breaks)
Am I missing something? Something like "both rockets are some way forced to accelerate with respect to the initial reference frame (maybe)?
 
  • #58
Stalin Beltran said:
May I make a silly question? What are the initial conditions of this paradox? If I am right, the conditions were:
  1. Two identical rockets, and if programmed the program is equal
  2. Both rockets start at the same time, according to the initial reference frame (named S, for example)
  3. Both rockets are tied by a inelastic string, which will break if it is elongated (that is, to the minimum elongation, it breaks)
Am I missing something? Something like "both rockets are some way forced to accelerate with respect to the initial reference frame (maybe)?
3. Both rockets are tied by an elastic string, which will break if the strain as measured in its momentarily co-moving frame reaches the elongation to break.
4. The string will break at a certain moment, and as interpreted in S, this is due to length contraction because the distance between the rockets remains constant in this frame. Length contraction refers in this context to a change of the stress-free length of an object as observed from a single frame.
 
Last edited:
  • #59
Nugatory said:
To do that, you'll need to know how rapidly they are moving apart, and the easiest way to do that is start with their trajectories in the frame in which their acceleration are "truly uniform" (your words, not mine) and then transform into a frame in which one or the other end of the string is at rest. That way, length contraction never enters into the problem, and you can analyze the behavior of the string using only well-understood classical materials science.

Surely inertial frames, comoving or not don't come into the problem. As Nugatory says - transform to the local frame basis of anyone of the ships and it becomes clear that the ships ahead are getting further away and the trailing ships are falling further behind. This stretches the string.
 
  • #60
Mentz114 said:
Surely inertial frames, comoving or not don't come into the problem. As Nugatory says - transform to the local frame basis of anyone of the ships and it becomes clear that the ships ahead are getting further away and the trailing ships are falling further behind. This stretches the string.
In which sense that is correct and in which sense not, was the subject of the elaborated discussion here above - starting with Nugatory's post #48 .
 
  • #61
harrylin said:
In which sense that is correct and in which sense not, was the subject of the elaborated discussion here above - starting with Nugatory's post #48 .

I don't know what you mean. In what sense is the string breaking because it is stretched not correct ?
 
  • #62
harrylin said:
4. The string will break at a certain moment, and as interpreted in S, this is due to length contraction because the distance between the rockets remains constant in this frame. Length contraction refers in this context to a change of the stress-free length of an object as observed from a single frame.

Point 4 is part of the initial conditions, or is it part of the conclusions achieved by analyzing the paradox?
 
  • #63
Mentz114 said:
I don't know what you mean. In what sense is the string breaking because it is stretched not correct ?
I don't know if anyone would have a problem with saying that the string breaks "because it is stretched". The discussion on p.3 is about the use in SR of accelerating frames instead of inertial frames.
 
  • #64
Stalin Beltran said:
Point 4 is part of the initial conditions, or is it part of the conclusions achieved by analyzing the paradox?
Apart of the definition, point 4 is my sketch of Bell's analysis. And of course, my main remark concerned point 3.
 
  • #65
harrylin said:
Apart of the definition, point 4 is my sketch of Bell's analysis. And of course, my main remark concerned point 3.

That is important. I have been analyzing this paradox by taking little ##\Delta t##'s, and if the conditions are 1 to 3, the output will be no string broken (supposing I am right). I know we are not dealing that here, but I just wanted to be sure about the initial conditions.
 
  • #66
Stalin Beltran said:
That is important. I have been analyzing this paradox by taking little ##\Delta t##'s, and if the conditions are 1 to 3, the output will be no string broken (supposing I am right). I know we are not dealing that here, but I just wanted to be sure about the initial conditions.
Yes the initial conditions are as described in Wikipedia.

PS. if you find that the string doesn't break, then it may be a good idea to present your calculation here for debugging. Comparing the situations at t0=0 and t1 >>0 suffices for the analysis.
 
Last edited:
  • #67
Stalin Beltran said:
That is important. I have been analyzing this paradox by taking little ##\Delta t##'s, and if the conditions are 1 to 3, the output will be no string broken (supposing I am right). I know we are not dealing that here, but I just wanted to be sure about the initial conditions.

If you are getting that answer, then you are making a mistake somewhere. The Lorentz transformations show that:

  1. If the accelerations are equal in the initial rest frame, then the accelerations are unequal in other rest frames.
  2. In particular, in the comoving rest frame of one of the rockets, the acceleration of the front rocket is greater.
  3. So in the comoving rest frame of one of the rockets, the distance between the rockets is increasing.
  4. Therefore, the string should break.
 
  • #68
harrylin said:
I don't know if anyone would have a problem with saying that the string breaks "because it is stretched". The discussion on p.3 is about the use in SR of accelerating frames instead of inertial frames.
OK. My point is that frames are irrelevant in the sense that we only need to find a frame independent analysis. The problem can be expressed in a frame independent way if we can find a Lorentz scalar that tells us if the ships are getting further apart. There is a tensor, ##\theta_{ab}=\partial_a u_b## which has a contraction ##\theta={\theta^a}_a## which tells us if the rockets move apart or get closer. For the case in question it is ##\gamma^3 a^2t##. The ships are moving apart.

The fact that people are using comoving frames to decide questions of physics and not getting clear answers makes me think those methods are very subtle and difficult to use. So, complicated and not needed for understanding.

Usually arguments that use the terms 'length contraction' and 'time dilation' are flawed. The only thing one can trust are Lorentz transformations and scalars. Of course relativity of simultaneity is a fact of life so the phrase 'at the same time' has to mathematically defined to be useful. In the rocket ships case there is no ambiguity because the simultaneity of the take-offs is attributed in one frame.
 
Last edited:
  • #69
Mentz114 said:
I don't know what you mean. In what sense is the string breaking because it is stretched not correct ?

Do you have an opinion regarding why there was so much confusion regarding Bell's Paradox, even among experts?
 
  • #70
1977ub said:
Do you have an opinion regarding why there was so much confusion regarding Bell's Paradox, even among experts?
I'm as confused as anyone about this. But there is no observer who sits on the rope thinking 'why is the rope getting tighter when the ends are fixed ?' This is a mathematical fact as solid as you like. If the observer can't exist then the weird event can't exist and there is no need to 'explain' it. Trying to explain the impossible leads to confusion.
 
  • #71
1977ub said:
Do you have an opinion regarding why there was so much confusion regarding Bell's Paradox, even among experts?
I only know that laymen often misunderstand length contraction as comparison between two time points (before and after acceleration), while in fact it compares two different frames. So they fail to see that keeping constant distance in the initial rest frame, implies stretching in the current rest frame.

To me the most intuitive explanation is replacing the string with a chain. The rigid chain links will get shorter in the initial frame, so they cannot span the same distance anymore.

chain.png


In the case of a more solid string, the links are individual atoms which contract, or their EM fields which connect them to each other.
 
  • #72
A.T. said:
I only know that laymen often misunderstand length contraction as comparison between two time points (before and after acceleration), while in fact it compares two different frames. So they fail to see that keeping constant distance in the initial rest frame, implies stretching in the current rest frame.

In the case of a more solid string, the links are individual atoms which contract, or their EM fields which connect them to each other.

I don't think that is possible. Any apparent contraction in length is offset by a change in the internal potentials caused by time dilation. The atoms would remain in unstretched equilibrium.

Can you show equations ?
 
  • #73
Mentz114 said:
I don't think that is possible. Any apparent contraction in length is offset by a change in the internal potentials caused by time dilation. The atoms would remain in unstretched equilibrium.
If the distances between the atoms do not change, but forces between them increase, then their potentials must be have been contracted. How else would you explain the increasing stresses, based solely on the initial rest frame?
 
Last edited:
  • #74
A.T. said:
If the distances between the atoms do not change, but forces between them increase, then their potentials must be have been contracted. How else would you explain the increasing stresses, based solely on the initial rest frame?

Nothing I've written disproves what you suggest so that remains open and I'm not going to attempt to pursuade you in someone else's topic.

My position is that there is nothing to explain so it's irrelevant anyway. No disrespect intended.
 
  • #75
Mentz114 said:
OK. My point is that frames are irrelevant in the sense that we need only find a frame independent analysis. The problem can be expressed in a frame independent way if can find a Lorentz scalar that tells us if the ships are getting further apart. There is a tensor, ##\theta_{ab}=\partial_a u_b## which has a contraction ##\theta={\theta^a}_a## which tells us if the rockets move apart or get closer. For the case in question it is ##\gamma^3 \partial_t\beta=\gamma^3\ a##. The ships are moving apart.

I'm sorry, did you already define \theta? The way you've defined it seems to treat u_b as a vector field, but how is that defined?

I tried to come up with a covariant formulation of the problem, and it seemed sort of complicated. Here are my thoughts on this:

Suppose you just want to characterize how stretched a string is, in a covariant way. Here's my approach: We label a point along the string connecting the rockets with a number \lambda, which is the distance along the string from one end to that point. Then we could define \mathcal{P}(\lambda, \tau) to be the event that the point labeled \lambda passes through at proper time \tau.

In terms of \mathcal{P}(\lambda, \tau) we can define two partial derivatives:

D^\mu = \frac{\partial}{\partial \lambda} \mathcal{P}
U^\mu = \frac{\partial}{\partial \tau} \mathcal{P}

U^\mu is just the 4-velocity of the point on the string labeled \lambda

So if we start at \lambda, \tau and consider a nearby piece of the string at \lambda + \delta \lambda, \tau + \delta \tau, the separation will be, to first order:

S^\mu = D^\mu \delta \lambda + U^\mu \delta \tau

Now, here's the tricky part, it seems to me. If we want to know the spatial separation between two nearby pieces of string, that means that we have to choose \delta \tau so that S^\mu is purely spatial, in the local comoving rest frame of the string. That means that

U^\mu S_\mu = 0

because the 4-velocity is purely temporal, in that comoving rest frame. So that implies that:

U^\mu D_\mu \delta \lambda + U^\mu U_\mu \delta \tau = 0

Since U^\mu U_\mu = 1 for any object (in units with c=1), it follows that:

\delta \tau = - \delta \lambda \ U^\mu D_\mu

This is the value of \delta \tau that makes \mathcal{P}(\lambda, \tau) and \mathcal{P}(\lambda + \delta \lambda, \tau + \delta \tau) simultaneous, in the comoving rest frame of the string at label \lambda. So for this value of \delta \tau, the separation between the nearby pieces of string is given by:

S^\mu = \delta \lambda (D^\mu - (U \cdot D) U^\mu)

If there were no stretching or compression, then the separation between the two points would be of magnitude \delta \lambda. So a measure of the stretching or compression is the factor:

Q = - \frac{S_\mu S^\mu}{\delta \lambda^2} (the minus sign is because the square of a spatial vector is negative, in my convention)

If there is no stretching or compression, then Q = 1. If Q > 1, that means the string is being stretched. If Q < 1, that means the string is being compressed.

So writing it out,

Q = - (D^\mu D_\mu - (D^\mu U_\mu)^2) (where I again used U^\mu U_\mu = 1)

Just as a check, if every part of the string is at rest in Rindler coordinates, then that means

x(\lambda, \tau) = \lambda cosh(\frac{\tau}{\lambda})
t(\lambda, \tau) = \lambda sinh(\frac{\tau}{\lambda})

(The usual Rindler coordinates use X, T instead of \lambda, \tau. The relationship is just \lambda = X, \tau = \lambda gT)

then Q = 1 (I'm skipping the proof). So if the string is at rest in Rindler coordinates, then it is unstretched.

On the other hand, if every part of the string accelerates together at the rate, then:

x(\lambda, \tau) = \lambda + f(\tau)
t(\lambda, \tau) = g(\tau) (independent of \lambda.

Then

Q = 1 + U^2

where U = \frac{dx}{d\tau}

So Q > 1. So if the points on the string are undergoing simultaneous acceleration, then the string stretches.
 
  • #76
stevendaryl said:
I'm sorry, did you already define θ\theta? The way you've defined it seems to treat ubu_b as a vector field, but how is that defined?

I tried to come up with a covariant formulation of the problem, and it seemed sort of complicated. Here are my thoughts on this:

Yes, ##u## is a congruence (time-like vector field). I skipped a lot of detail because I wanted to keep it simple. It is fully covariant. It is done in the global frame basis where partial differentiation is covariant. I can repeat it in the local frame and (of course) get the same result.

It'll take time to understand your workings above.
 
Last edited:
  • #77
stevendaryl said:
did you already define ##\theta##? The way you've defined it seems to treat ##u_b## as a vector field, but how is that defined?

##\theta## is just the expansion scalar; it's part of the kinematic decomposition of the timelike congruence ##u_b##. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congru...atical_decomposition_of_a_timelike_congruence

What you are doing in the rest of your post is basically the same thing, just with different notation. The key is that the kinematic decomposition is frame-independent; you can compute it in any frame you like, but the scalars derived from it, such as the expansion scalar, are invariant. So the expansion scalar of the Bell congruence being positive is a frame-invariant way of saying that the string stretches.
 
  • #78
Mentz114 said:
[..] The fact that people are using comoving frames to decide questions of physics and not getting clear answers makes me think those methods are very subtle and difficult to use. So, complicated and not needed for understanding. [..].
That was exactly Bell's point! He simply stayed in S to obtain the answer and while that's perhaps a bit subtle, his method is not difficult or complicated. And it looks much simpler to me than your method.
 
  • #79
harrylin said:
That was exactly Bell's point! He simply stayed in S to obtain the answer and while that's perhaps a bit subtle, his method is not difficult or complicated. And it looks much simpler to me than your method.

I'm not sure what you're calling 'you're method'. If you mean the expansion scalar, then I cannot take credit for that. It's a standard kinematic decomposition found in textbooks.

As for the 'explanations' why an apparently unstretched string snaps they all seem to be flawed because there is no way to define (unambiguously) a time-independent length of an object if the clocks along its length cannot be synchronised. So any object in this condition cannot, by definition, have a constant length because the length is different at every measurement ( I think stevendaryls calculatation reinforces this).

Using some bogus definition of distance it is easy to conclude that there is something to explain - but there isn't.
 
Last edited:
  • #80
Mentz114 said:
Using some bogus definition of distance it is easy to conclude that there is something to explain - but there isn't.
What do you mean by "bogus "? In the initial rest frame you have a ruler at rest and synchronized clocks placed along it. You can easily measure where the ends of the string are at any time point, and thus what the length of the string is, according to that frame.
 
  • #81
Mentz114 said:
[..] As for the 'explanations' why an apparently unstretched string snaps they all seem to be flawed [...].
Well of course, we all know the string will increasingly come under strain. But when Bell first presented this example, many people at CERN gave the wrong answer ("There emerged a clear consensus that the thread would not break!"). That was almost certainly due to wrong and perhaps overly complicated reasoning. In contrast, Bell's physical analysis is as simple and easy as it can get, and it gives the right answer. Therefore he included it in his paper "How to teach relativity".
 
  • #82
A.T. said:
What do you mean by "bogus "? In the initial rest frame you have a ruler at rest and synchronized clocks placed along it. You can easily measure where the ends of the string are at any time point, and thus what the length of the string is, according to that frame.

But the clocks on the ends of the ruler are not synchronised with the string clocks. So measuring them simultaneously ( in S) is not simultaneous in the ship frame.

I think StevenDaryls approach overcomes this, at the cost of producing a length measure which cannot remain the same. He works out a frame independent length which is based on proper time.
 
Last edited:
  • #83
Mentz114 said:
So measuring them simultaneously ( in S) is not simultaneous in the ship frame.
Yeah, but it gives you a perfectly valid length measurement in S. I don't understand what is "bogus" about it.
 
  • #84
Mentz114 said:
But the clocks on the ends of the ruler are not synchronised with the string clocks. So measuring them simultaneously ( in S) is not simultaneous in the ship frame. [..]
And there is absolutely no need to look at what is simultaneous in S'. :wink:

Bell's approach is quite similar to Einstein's approach when he made the first clocks prediction: first he worked out, based on the Lorentz transformations, what according to S the rate is of a clock in motion. That yielded a new law of physics about moving clocks. Based on physical reasoning he then predicted the retardation of a clock that moves at constant speed in a circle, without needing any more Lorentz transformations.
(once more: §4 of http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ )

Imagine that we next slightly complicate Einstein's example, in the spirit of the title of this thread, by having two identical clocks that are located at a distance from each other depart simultaneously, with identical acceleration profiles.
Following Einstein and Bell, it "is at once apparent" that they will remain in synch with each other according to clocks at rest in S; and that they will delay, compared to clocks in S, by the same amount.
In contrast, if one feels the need to continuously transform to instantaneous rest frames S' and S''(etc) of the moving clocks and next compare the moving clocks with each other from consecutive S' and S'', a complicated calculation follows from which one learns nothing new and that yields the same result - if no error is made.
 
  • #85
harrylin said:
Well of course, we all know the string will increasingly come under strain. But when Bell first presented this example, many people at CERN gave the wrong answer ("There emerged a clear consensus that the thread would not break!"). That was almost certainly due to wrong and perhaps overly complicated reasoning. In contrast, Bell's physical analysis is as simple and easy as it can get, and it gives the right answer. Therefore he included it in his paper "How to teach relativity".
harrylin said:
And there is absolutely no need to look at what is simultaneous in S'. :wink:
...
Thanks. So the ship clocks are out of synch by the same amount with the ruler clocks. I just want to summarise the gist of the 'explanation'.

In the stationary frame basis every ship has the same velocity and acceleration, and the gap between them remains the same. But the string gets tighter and breaks.
So a force field of the EM type is proposed that has this effect on matter. Now the force field must increase so it cannot depend on the acceleration which is constant. It must therefore depend only on the velocity of the ships as measured in the ground frame. Now suppose the acceleration is zero - the same conditions hold as previously.

Why does the string not snap ?

(This is a bit obvious so I must have overlooked something ).

[edit]
The 'effect' obviously can depend on the magnitude of the acceleration. Getting late here. Apologies.
 
Last edited:
  • #86
Mentz114 said:
In the stationary frame basis every ship has the same velocity and acceleration, and the gap between them remains the same. But the string gets tighter and breaks.
Yes, since the length didn't change, the only explanation why the stress increases is that the stress-free-length, that the string tries to reach has changed.

Mentz114 said:
So a force field of the EM type is proposed that has this effect on matter.
The interactions between atoms are EM.

Mentz114 said:
Now the force field must increase...
Not just increase everywhere, but contract along the direction of motion of its source. This can lead to increased forces along that direction, even if the interacting atoms keep a constant distance.

Mentz114 said:
It must therefore depend only on the velocity
Yes, length contraction depends on velocity.
 
  • #87
Mentz114 said:
Thanks. So the ship clocks are out of synch by the same amount with the ruler clocks. I just want to summarise the gist of the 'explanation'.

In the stationary frame basis every ship has the same velocity and acceleration, and the gap between them remains the same. But the string gets tighter and breaks.
So a force field of the EM type is proposed that has this effect on matter. [..]
That's perhaps a bit putting the cart before the horse. If atomic bonds are electromagnetic, then EM laws should make predictions that agree with the relativity principle. And apparently this is the case with Maxwell's laws (it's not simple though).

From the Lorentz transformations, Einstein (re-)derived the following laws of physics:
- a clock that is brought in motion will tick slower than in rest by the factor gamma (ceteris paribus)
- a ruler that is brought in motion will contract by the factor gamma (ceteris paribus)

Those laws should not be confounded with the Lorentz transformations. But they look very similar, and "length contraction" and "time dilation" similarly can have two meanings. It is increasingly my opinion that lack of distinction between the Lorentz transformations and the new laws of nature that followed from them is the main cause of why "paradoxes" with clocks and rulers continue to bug people.

To state clearly what is often brushed over:

1. SR's Lorentz transformations. Positions and distances as well as times and time periods as measured in different inertial frames are mapped to each other by means of the Lorentz transformations. This is valid between two inertial reference systems (with "Einstein synchronization").

2. Some of SR's laws of nature. The frequencies and lengths of objects (clocks and rulers) depend on their speed. This is valid for objects in any state of motion in a single inertial reference system (by a single "observer"). Of course, the effects of other physical influences must also be taken in account.

BTW the use of the "observer" short-hand only helps to forget that it does not mean objects or people. Even "frame" can be misleading in a similar way.

When mixing up these very different but similar looking notions, one could for example wrongly think that:

- the Lorentz transformations may be used for the accumulated time of an inertial clock according to an "observer" in any state of motion - the modern version of the "twin paradox".
- a non-connected system of accelerating rockets will contract as a whole - the Bell spaceship paradox.
- an accelerating system with clocks will naturally maintain Einstein synchronization (posts 1 and 8).

PS. question to 1977ub: was something like that also the reason for your confusion, or was there a different cause?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes 1977ub
  • #88
I like the thought exper of two clocks, one stays, the other acclerated to the front. stays one year and then acclerated to the rear.
But, this non stationary clock would have had it's time "dilated" during two accelerations and would therefore show less time elapse, not more as you
suggested.
Correct?
 
  • #89
although time dilatation in accelerated clocks is well accepted, no one has shown length contraction in real life.
Correct?
 
  • #90
bligh said:
although time dilatation in accelerated clocks is well accepted, no one has shown length contraction in real life.
Correct?
Depends what you mean. There is no way to explain the cosmic ray muons without length contraction, and the explanation for the motion of a charge near a current carrying wire needs it, too.

However, no one has ever shut a 1m pole into a 0.5m barn, if that's what you mean.
 
  • #91
harrylin said:
Yes the initial conditions are as described in Wikipedia.

PS. if you find that the string doesn't break, then it may be a good idea to present your calculation here for debugging. Comparing the situations at t0=0 and t1 >>0 suffices for the analysis.

Of course. I have it published it in my blog (It doesn't mean it is correct, it is just my analysis).
Bell’s spaceship thread does not breaks
The analysis basically goes like this:

Step 0: We have 2 spaceships, A and B, in the same frame of reference that a spaceship S. The rocket motors are about to start, but not yet. A, B and S are "simultaneous", so if motors start, they will start simultaneous to S too.

Step 1: A and B starts motors with exactly the same acceleration for a ##\Delta t## as short as we want. (A, B and S share the same frame of reference when motors start). This results in a final velocity ##V_1## for A and B because both the acceleration and the ##\Delta t##'s are equal. At the end of this ##\Delta t## both A and B still share the same frame of reference because they both have the same velocity ##V_1##. However S remains at rest, so S is now in another frame of reference. The relativity of simultaneity states that, at the end of this step, both A and B are not longer "simultaneous" to S, so saying that the accelerations are equal in the initial rest frame S is not possible at the end of this step. A and B are in the same frame of reference, so if they accelerate, they both will accelerate at the same time and in the same proportion.

This could be extended to N steps, and the results are the same. A and B being in the same frame of reference means they are at rest relative to each other. The distance between them will stay the same, so the string will not break.
 
  • #92
Stalin Beltran said:
Of course. I have it published it in my blog (It doesn't mean it is correct, it is just my analysis).
Bell’s spaceship thread does not breaks
The analysis basically goes like this:

Step 0: We have 2 spaceships, A and B, in the same frame of reference that a spaceship S. The rocket motors are about to start, but not yet. A, B and S are "simultaneous", so if motors start, they will start simultaneous to S too.

Step 1: A and B starts motors with exactly the same acceleration for a ##\Delta t## as short as we want. (A, B and S share the same frame of reference when motors start). This results in a final velocity ##V_1## for A and B because both the acceleration and the ##\Delta t##'s are equal. At the end of this ##\Delta t## both A and B still share the same frame of reference because they both have the same velocity ##V_1##. However S remains at rest, so S is now in another frame of reference. The relativity of simultaneity states that, at the end of this step, both A and B are not longer "simultaneous" to S, so saying that the accelerations are equal in the initial rest frame S is not possible at the end of this step. A and B are in the same frame of reference, so if they accelerate, they both will accelerate at the same time and in the same proportion.

This could be extended to N steps, and the results are the same. A and B being in the same frame of reference means they are at rest relative to each other. The distance between them will stay the same, so the string will not break.

There is no such thing as "being in a frame of reference", so any analysis that casually tosses that phrase around is suspect. The reference frame is simply a convention used for assigning x and t coordinates to events, so any reference frame can always be applied to everything in a given problem.

There is one reference frame in which the two spaceships are at rest relative to one another (meaning that ##x_1(t)-x_2(t)## is a constant where ##x_1(2)## and ##x_2(t)## are the x-coordinates of the leading and trailing spaceships at time ##t## using the ##x## and ##t## coordinates assigned by that frame). That is the frame in which the ground-based observer is at rest (##x_g(t)## is constant for all ##t## where ##x_g(t)## is the x-coordinate of the ground-based observer's location at time t). In that frame the string is never at rest, so it length-contracts and breaks. In any other frame, the distance between the two ships ##x_1(t)-x_2(t)## (using the ##x## and ##t## coordinates of that frame) increases with time so the string breaks.
 
Last edited:
  • #93
bligh said:
I like the thought exper of two clocks, one stays, the other acclerated to the front. stays one year and then acclerated to the rear.
But, this non stationary clock would have had it's time "dilated" during two accelerations and would therefore show less time elapse, not more as you
suggested.
Correct?
Perhaps you are referring to post #13 by stevendaryl. He did not discuss a rocket that is in rest for one year, but a rocket that is accelerating for one year!

The two-way clock transport inside the rocket results in a very slight retardation of the transported clock on the rear clock. If that experiment was done in rest, the one year in the front would be totally irrelevant. And it is easy to understand that also in an accelerating rocket whatever the effect of this transport may be (that requires deeper analysis), it does not depend on the time that the clock is staying in the front of the rocket. Now consider what happens during the year of acceleration. Due to length contraction of the rocket, the front clock will at any instant be going at a very slightly lesser speed than the rear clock, so that during that time the rear clock delays on the front clock. The longer the transported clock stays in front, the greater the delay of the rear clock will be.
 
Last edited:
  • #94
Stalin Beltran said:
[..] A and B are in the same frame of reference, so if they accelerate, they both will accelerate at the same time and in the same proportion. [..] A and B being in the same frame of reference means they are at rest relative to each other.
Coincidentally, I had just before your post identified the interpretation error behind those phrases! :wink:
See my post #87.

Proportional mapping between inertial reference frames was assumed for deriving the Lorentz transformations, and inertial A and B in rest relative to each other can according to SR be used to set up an inertial frame for describing natural phenomena. It is the misapplication of such assumptions to mapping of an inertial frame with an accelerating frame that leads to paradoxes of this kind.
 
Last edited:
  • #95
Nugatory said:
In any other frame, the distance between the two ships x1(t)−x2(t)x_1(t)-x_2(t) (using the xx and tt coordinates of that frame) increases with time so the string breaks.

I can see the frame where the spaceships are at rest. I can see the frame where the string contract. But I just don't see the frame where the distances between spaceships increases. Could you elaborate this please?
 
  • #96
bligh said:
although time dilatation in accelerated clocks is well accepted, no one has shown length contraction in real life.
Correct?
Lorentz seemed to think that Michelson and Morely showed length contraction in real life. Personally, I think there is a lot of evidence showing length contraction in real life, from MM, to muons, to particle bunches in accelerators, to magnetism.
 
  • #97
harrylin said:
PS. question to 1977ub: was something like that also the reason for your confusion, or was there a different cause?

Not exactly. But the confusion re laws-of-physics vs lorentz contraction is interesting part of this.
 
  • #98
DaleSpam said:
Lorentz seemed to think that Michelson and Morely showed length contraction in real life. Personally, I think there is a lot of evidence showing length contraction in real life, from MM, to muons, to particle bunches in accelerators, to magnetism.

As far as I understand, length contraction is the way an observer traveling with speed V sees the world in the direction of movement. For example, a muon doesn't notice its clock had slow down. Instead it see its distance to Earth has contracted, and that is the way it reaches the Earth's surface.

Am I right?
 
  • #99
Stalin Beltran said:
I can see the frame where the spaceships are at rest. I can see the frame where the string contract. But I just don't see the frame where the distances between spaceships increases. Could you elaborate this please?

There is no frame in which the spaceships are both at rest (except the ground frame before and up to the moment that they light off their engines). They remain at rest relative to another (that is, moving in the same direction at the same speed) in the ground frame but of course they are not at rest in that frame once the engines have fired to start them moving. In all other frames, the ships are moving relative to one another.
 
  • #100
Stalin Beltran said:
As far as I understand, length contraction is the way an observer traveling with speed V sees the world in the direction of movement. For example, a muon doesn't notice its clock had slow down. Instead it see its distance to Earth has contracted, and that is the way it reaches the Earth's surface.

Am I right?
Yes. Although I am not a fan of the "observer" phrasing. I prefer to simply speak of reference frames and not insist on attaching them to observers.
 
Back
Top