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Consciousness And What Constitutes Proof?

  1. Aug 22, 2003 #1
    Just some excerpts from Zero's thread, about the nature of consciousness and what constitutes proof. For example, without consciousness, how can we establish the nature of anything, let alone the fact that we exist? Or how else would it be possible to establish this thing called science then? Therefore, where is the criteria for proof? Through science? ... or through consciousness?

    From the thread, Why the bias against materialism? ...

  2. jcsd
  3. Aug 24, 2003 #2
    Since nobody wants to take a stab at it, let me just say this, we mustn't under-estimate the power of the observer, be it in science or otherwise. For without it, along with our ability to use deductive reasoning (asking pertinent questions), we would have no means by which to establish anything, period.

    This is also the criteria by which we establish our intelligence by the way. :wink:
  4. Aug 25, 2003 #3
    This thought has been rattling around in my consciousness for a few days, along with others.

    Inductive reasoning is perfectly plausable withing the paradigm that all thought are simply objective activity of a material brain (hardware). The wiring is already inplace and only new connections or viewpoints are required to reach inductive conclusions.

    Deductive reasoning, however, is the reaching of a conclusion with data or ideas not already there; but, by abstract reasoning alone.
    Without spontainiously creating new wiring by thought alone how can inductive reasoning be explained in a purely objective paradigm?

    If it is argued that the neurons make new connections, how do they do this if not in response to intentional abstract thought. This would be a contradiction to objectivity because then abstract subjectivity is the cause of the effect of new neuron connections.
  5. Aug 25, 2003 #4
    Are you suggesting that everything has a subjective cause (motive) which gives rise to an objective effect? Makes sense to me.

    It's sort of like when a man impregnates a woman, the moment has already and come and gone (cause or motive), of which the effect takes another nine months to become visible. :wink:
  6. Aug 25, 2003 #5
    Well everything that man does, wheather impregnating a woman or writing a book. Subjectivity is the cause of the objective effect.
    I was thinking that this might be proof or at least support that the sujective can and does cause objective effects. A point denied by our merialist and objectivist friends as you know.
    Just be tween you and me theist I think that the point is well made that the subjective (intent) is the cause and creation of all of objectivity (the Universe).
  7. Aug 25, 2003 #6
    Yes, and through our "subjective awareness" (consciousness), we can acknowledge the "effects" of creation ... and go out and "cause" something else to happen! :wink:
  8. Nov 21, 2003 #7
    Does not pain constitute proof of conciousness?
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