Conserved Noether charge and gravity

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conservation of Noether charges in the context of a non-relativistic particle in a gravitational field, specifically examining the implications of the Lagrangian formulation and the equations of motion.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the Lagrangian for a non-relativistic particle in a gravitational field and questions why the corresponding Noether charge is not conserved when using the equations of motion.
  • Another participant notes the confusion stemming from the equations of motion for the gravitational potential, suggesting that the Poisson equation is not dynamical and can be modified with a Lagrange multiplier without resolving the conservation issue.
  • A participant identifies that the variation of the Lagrangian includes an unwanted term related to the gravitational potential, complicating the derivation of the Noether charges.
  • One participant asks for references or sources where this problem is discussed, indicating a search for further clarification.
  • A later participant claims to have found an answer to their initial question, suggesting a resolution but without elaborating on the details.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the conservation of the Noether charge and the implications of the equations of motion, indicating that multiple competing views remain without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to the treatment of the gravitational potential and the assumptions underlying the equations of motion, which may affect the conservation of the Noether charge.

haushofer
Science Advisor
Insights Author
Messages
3,082
Reaction score
1,601
If one considers the Lagrangian of a non-relativistic particle in a gravitational field,

[tex] L = \frac{m}{2}(\delta_{ij}\dot{x}^i \dot{x}^j + 2 \phi(x^k) )[/tex]

it transforms under

[tex] \delta x^i = \xi^i (t), \ \ \ \ \delta \phi = \ddot{\xi}^i x_i[/tex]

as a total derivative:

[tex] \delta L = \frac{d}{dt}(m \dot{\xi}^i x_i)[/tex]

My question is: why is the corresponding Noether charge

[tex] Q = p_i \xi^i - m \dot{\xi}^i x_i[/tex]

not conserved if one uses the equations of motion? I'm staring at the problem now for quite some time, missing something obvious, but I can't see it :)
 
Physics news on Phys.org
It's confusing, because the EOM for phi is the Poisson equation, which is not dynamical; it could be obtained by adding

[tex] \lambda[\partial_i \partial^i \phi - 4 \pi G \rho][/tex]

to the Lagrangian, where lambda is a Lagrange multiplier. But this doesn't change the situation.
 
So I more or less have the answer to my question; the variation [itex]\delta L[/itex] also contains a

[tex] \frac{\partial L}{\partial \phi}\delta \phi = m \ddot{\xi}^i x_i[/tex]

term, which I don't want. So how to get the corresponding Noether charges?
 
Does somebody know where this problem is treated?
 
I think I have the answer, so nevermind.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
779
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K