Contradiction of God: Examining Free Will & Omniscience

[Jameson]

Let me define the God I am talking about first. I am looking at one quality of the Christian God, omniscience. That is "Having total knowledge; knowing everything".

Now I am going with the belief that God knows all past and all future as the statement I am discussing.

This is a question of free will. If God knows the future before it happens, does it take away our free will?

I'd like to start out by saying that we do not have complete free will. We are bound by the laws of physics, which we did not define. I think this is being discussed in another forum. Anyway, I believe if God knows the future before it happens, then we obviously do not have free will.

Now I know the opposition that many of you may be thinking. God is outside of our time, outside of our reality and does not need to follow the rules He defined for us. To be honest, I would say this does not hold up logically. God is supposed to be everyone, he is omnipresent. How can a God that is everywhere not be somewhere? Our minds contemplate many contradictions that we cannot explain, so sometimes we turn to faith. My main point in this whole thread, is that the belief that God knows the future is decided by faith, not by logic.

Alright, I'm interested in your thoughts. Post them.

Jameson

 

[dekoi]

Let me define the God I am talking about first. I am looking at one quality of the Christian God, omniscience. That is "Having total knowledge; knowing everything".

Now I am going with the belief that God knows all past and all future as the statement I am discussing.

This is a question of free will. If God knows the future before it happens, does it take away our free will?

I'd like to start out by saying that we do not have complete free will. We are bound by the laws of physics, which we did not define. I think this is being discussed in another forum. Anyway, I believe if God knows the future before it happens, then we obviously do not have free will.

Now I know the opposition that many of you may be thinking. God is outside of our time, outside of our reality and does not need to follow the rules He defined for us. To be honest, I would say this does not hold up logically. God is supposed to be everyone, he is omnipresent. How can a God that is everywhere not be somewhere? Our minds contemplate many contradictions that we cannot explain, so sometimes we turn to faith. My main point in this whole thread, is that the belief that God knows the future is decided by faith, not by logic.

Alright, I'm interested in your thoughts. Post them.

Jameson

No, you are mistaken.

Belief in God is decided by means of logic. There are arguments for the existence of God, with which we build our belief with.

Then there is faith -- an extension of belief. Once we create a proper, strong foundation for belief, we are granted faith to give answers to our unanswerable questions.

A main point that you have to understand is that God is non-contradictory. Keep that in mind.

 

[Jameson]

Umm. I'm sorry but I completely disagree. You are not even addressing my point. If God is logical, then show me why. Don't just dismiss my statement by saying "it's wrong". Contradictions are not logical, remember that. I've never heard of anyone believing in God without faith, so I don't see where you are coming from.

 

[dekoi]

I ...disagree... If God is logical, then show me why. Don't just dismiss my statement by saying "it's wrong". Contradictions are not logical, remember that. I've never heard of anyone believing in God without faith, so I don't see where you are coming from.

I never said God is logical. I said to believe in God you must use logic, then to build your faith you must use faith.

Contradictions are produced by means of logical assertion. If the first and second premise cannot be both true, or both false at the same time, the statements are contradictory. That process is logic. God once again, is non-contradictory. Your free will argument is false then, since you are attempting to contradict God. You proposed yourself, "God is outside of our time, outside of our reality and does not need to follow the rules He defined for us.", which would conclude that God is non-contradictory (since he's away from our way of thought, our reality as you put it, and then stated, "I would say this does not hold up logically."

Also, whoever believes in God -- a logical, intellectual human being -- says they have faith, because they have found sufficient logical data to begin their "belief". Once they formed their belief, they developed faith.

 

[Jameson]

Ok. I do have a contradiction here. 1)God is outside our time and reality 2)God is everywhere. Those are two contradictory statements. You are using circular reasoning by saying you believe God is non-contradictory, so if I say he is I am wrong. You have not justified your view, only dismissed mine. If you say God is outside our logic, how can you logically defend him. Logic does not require faith to be justified. I haven't seen you make a point, only try to say theists are smart solely because they are. I am logical and intellectual, and an atheist, so I resent your statements. I would like to stick to the issue, not attack people.

Jameson

 

[NeutronStar]

I've concluded that the Christian idea of god, and more importantly, individual human souls that are created at birth simply can't be correct.

To begin let's look at sin. Why do people do things that are considered to be sins? Well, if you are to ask me that question I simply couldn't answer it. Why? Because I have absolutely no desire to commit any act that would be considered to be a sin. I'm talking the ten-commandments here, not trivial crap that many people might believe is a sin.

I have absolutely no desire to steal, rape, pillage, murder, or even bear false witness against someone just to get them in trouble. I seriously have absolutely no desire to do these things. Well, obviously there are other people out there who do commit these acts on a regular basis. Why? Why are they tempted to do these things while I am not? Is that fair? Should I go to heaven for not having sinned when I had absolutely no need to fight temptation? I've basically been given a free pass simply because I'm not tempted to do any of these acts. I genuinely have never had to fight the urge to steal, rape, pillage, or otherwise do anything that could be considered a sin. Why have I been exempt to this temptation?

Also would it be fair to create men that are unequal in this way? Some men are naturally more tempted to commit sinful acts while others aren't? That would imply an unfair god. Or more to the point,… had I created humans I would have created them on more equal footing. That would make me more fair than god. In other words I would be superior to god in fairness. But that's absurd. Therefore the whole fairytale must be wrong!

One possible explanation, in keeping with a higher deity, is the concept of reincarnation. In other words, imagine that our souls were not created on the day that we are born, but instead we have evolved through a process of reincarnation. Given that scenario then it might make sense that I have less temptation that others around me. Perhaps I had already gone through the raw stages of temptation and passed, and now I'm not bothered by that aspect of human existence anymore. That would certainly make sense and level the playing field again.

By the way, before anyone suggests that this is an arrogant or egotistical point of view let me quickly point out that I know quite a few other people, who like me, are also not tempted to do terrible things in any way. I mean, if I found a wallet on the street containing thousands of dollars of cash in it I would well out of my way trying to find the owner. Not only wouldn't I steal, I won't even take something that can be returned knowing full well that no one would even know that I found it! I'm not rich either. In fact, I'm well within the poverty bracket and I would gladly accept thousands of dollars from anyone who might wish to bestow that gift upon me.

But I seriously wouldn’t want it at someone else's expense who perhaps can't afford to lose it. I don't consider myself to be religious. I never attend churches of any kind because I see them as nothing more than mankind's dogmatic bull crap. I certainly have never felt that I was in a "house of god" when I was in any church. In fact, I feel much more like I am in god's house when I'm out in the middle of natural with no man-made objects in sight.

If there is a god, it's certainly much more sophisticated than any man-made religions can even begin to imagine.

I mean, look at the way humans use religion. For the most part they just use gods to justify their political agendas and wars!

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Is there anyway to simply use one thread for all these religious arguments?

 

[0TheSwerve0]

And without getting emotional. IE, church is bull crap, that's a bit harsh. It's ok to say it's worthless in your opinion and a waste of time, but attitudes like that don't get us anywhere. Is this in a sticky somewhere? Cause I'm tired of it.

 

[NeutronStar]

And without getting emotional. IE, church is bull crap, that's a bit harsh. It's ok to say it's worthless in your opinion and a waste of time, but attitudes like that don't get us anywhere. Is this in a sticky somewhere? Cause I'm tired of it.

Sorry. I apologize. When I said that it's bull crap I actually meant that in my opinion it's a waste of time. I just assumed that everyone would realize that posts are generally nothing more than people's opinions.

I also feel pretty strongly about it because I've simply seen too many preachers who obviously have their own personal agendas. Personally I think its pretty despicable when someone uses a religion to advance their own personal beliefs. I also think that it's pretty clear that all priests and preaches don't agree. Therefore when you go to a sermon you are listening to individual interpretations (not necessarily to God's intended message, if there even is one).

I simply can't see churches as having anything to do with God. They are man-made institutions. That's my firm opinion. I see this as a logical conclusion, and this is what the author of this thread stated as the purpose of this thread - logical conclusions and/or contradictions.

Even if god does exist it still doesn't leave churches off the hook.

 

[dekoi]

Sorry. I apologize. When I said that it's bull crap I actually meant that in my opinion it's a waste of time. I just assumed that everyone would realize that posts are generally nothing more than people's opinions.

I also feel pretty strongly about it because I've simply seen too many preachers who obviously have their own personal agendas. Personally I think its pretty despicable when someone uses a religion to advance their own personal beliefs. I also think that it's pretty clear that all priests and preaches don't agree. Therefore when you go to a sermon you are listening to individual interpretations (not necessarily to God's intended message, if there even is one).

I simply can't see churches as having anything to do with God. They are man-made institutions. That's my firm opinion. I see this as a logical conclusion, and this is what the author of this thread stated as the purpose of this thread - logical conclusions and/or contradictions.

Even if god does exist it still doesn't leave churches off the hook.

These posts are firstly not all people's opinions. If everything is a personal opinion, and nothing is generally true, then why are you arguing your point in the first place?

Secondly, how can priests and preachers not agree? They all preach the same Bible. Unless of course, they're corrupt priests, which concludes that they aren't really priests after all. Perhaps you should look more deeply into Christianity before you state such a blatant comment.

Thirdly, a church is a man-made institution, the Church is not. The Church is eternal in Christianity. Read up on Peter in Christian scripture.

Lastly, are you referring to a single God or multiple god(s)? And if God does exist, how does that not "leave churches off the hook"?

 

[dekoi]

Ok. I do have a contradiction here. 1)God is outside our time and reality 2)God is everywhere. Those are two contradictory statements. You are using circular reasoning by saying you believe God is non-contradictory, so if I say he is I am wrong. You have not justified your view, only dismissed mine.

God is not "everywhere". Christianity states Jesus is in everyone, or that we should see Jesus in everyone (since he is [according to Christians] humanity's savior). Stating God is outside reality is also a bit risky.

Perhaps we should stop discussing Christianity so much. It is not tolerated here.

 

[NeutronStar]

These posts are firstly not all people's opinions. If everything is a personal opinion, and nothing is generally true, then why are you arguing your point in the first place?

Well if what you say is indeed the truth then I apologize. It was my understanding that this is a public forum where people post their personal view on topics and then give reasons why they believe their view has merit.

I can only say that if you are searching for some kind of absolute truth, and you are unwilling to listen to views that you disagree with, then you're probably wasting your time reading public philosophy forums on the Internet in the first place.

What else can I say?

The idea is to read things as food for thought then post your thoughts for others to reflect on them. If you disagree with a particular thought either post something positive that denounces it, or pass it by altogether as a waste of your time.

Like I say, I do apologize for using the term "bull crap" instead of stating more eloquently that I see no value in religious institutions. That was ignorant on my part, and I confess to the sin. But my less than tactful style of communication does not lessen the value of my point of view. (in your case my point of view obviously held no value to begin with so nothing was lost anyway)

My logical point was simply this. When I look at the world around me and see the condition of human beings I feel compassion, and I genuinely believe that had I created mankind I would have created a more humane species. Now taking that to it's logical conclusion this means that I must therefore be more compassate than god. But since it's illogical for a mere mortal man to be more compassionate than god, then it must be illogical to believe that a god exists.

After all, with god all things are possible. Therefore there is no reason on god's green Earth why god couldn't have created a more humane species of human beings. But he didn't, and I would have, therefore I must be the compassionate superior to god. That's a logical contradiction so god must not exist.

Sounds like an absolute truth to me.

 

[Jameson]

I think we should get back to the original post, which is about the logic of a certain trait of God. This isn't a site to bicker about religious differences, it's supposed to be about philosophy.

Dekoi - according to the Bible God is omnipresent, so I don't know how you say he isn't everywhere. And if he's not outside reality, why doesn't he have to follow our rules?

 

[Kerrie]

please see our guidelines and https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=15842 ...sorry, this topic is too close to religion...