Cooling in Cosmic Microwave Background

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the cooling of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) radiation as the universe expands. Participants explore the mechanisms behind the frequency and energy changes of photons in the context of cosmic expansion, addressing both conceptual and technical aspects of the phenomenon.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how CMB radiation "cools" and questions the mechanism by which photons lose frequency or energy as the universe expands.
  • Another participant suggests that as the universe expands, the average density of photons decreases, leading to a spreading out of energy and resulting in cooling.
  • A participant clarifies that in the analogy of a box, it is not just the walls that are moving apart, but all of space, which causes the wavelength of light to increase, thereby decreasing frequency and energy.
  • Another reply emphasizes the concept of expanding boxes, indicating that the distance between wave maxima increases, leading to redshift.
  • One participant reiterates that the average density of photons does not determine temperature for electromagnetic radiation, highlighting that only frequency matters.
  • A participant presents two perspectives: one from the light's perspective, where all distances are increasing, and another from an Earth observer's perspective, noting the redshift of light from distant sources due to cosmic expansion.
  • Another participant attempts to clarify the relationship between electromagnetic radiation and particle interactions, mentioning various types of radiation and their associated particles.
  • A later reply confirms that space itself is expanding, which stretches the wavelengths of the initial photons.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the mechanisms of cooling and redshift, with no consensus reached on the precise explanations or implications of these phenomena. Multiple competing views remain regarding the relationship between photon density, frequency, and temperature.

Contextual Notes

Some participants' arguments depend on specific interpretations of temperature in relation to electromagnetic radiation, and there are unresolved questions about the assumptions underlying their analogies and explanations.

merlinisproof
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I am a little confused about how exactly the CMB "works". At first hearing, it makes perfect sense that as time goes on and the universe expands radiation would decrese in frequence, but when I think about it a little more deeply I miss something.
My thought is how exactly does the light "cool", why does a photon, propagating through space, lose frequency or energy.
I thought of a photon traveling though a box big enough that it did not hit the sides, and imagine the box "expanding", without any heat input, and I couldn't imagine a mechanism that would make the photon lose its frequency, does it in this case? And if so where does the energy go? Or is this where I am going wrong in thinking of CMB as a set number of photon particles?
 
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As the universe expands the average density of photons contained within that area spread out as there is less overall density decreases. Therefore the overall energy also spreads out resulting in cooling. Temperature being an average energy level in a volume.

Also the area between particles at the time have more space to move around resulting in less average energy being released as the matter/antimatter annihilations become less frequent the quantity of matter and antimatter in that form also decresed to maintain those reactions.
 
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In your analogy of the box, only the walls of the box are getting further apart. In our universe, all of space is expanding, not just the boundaries. So the distance between two peaks of the EM field in a light wave are getting further apart as time moves forward. Since the wavelength of the light is increasing with time, the frequency and energy are decreasing with time.
 
You're not looking at a box, but rather boxes within boxes, all expanding together. So if you look now, you'll see one wall, but if you look again later, you'll see a different wall -- one further away and therefore moving faster and more redshifted.
 
Mordred said:
As the universe expands the average density of photons contained within that area spread out as there is less overall density decreases. Therefore the overall energy also spreads out resulting in cooling. Temperature being an average energy level in a volume.
That's not how temperature works for EM radiation. Only frequency matters, not photon density.
 
I may give you two pictures:

1. (from the light's perspective) - the whole universe is expanding. All the distances are increasing. Also distances between wave maxima. Thus, the wavelength rises -> frequency lowers.

2. (from Earth observer perspective). CMB had been radiated pretty long time ago, so it comes from pretty far parts of the universe. We observe (Hubble's law) that the light coming from distant sources gets shifted towards red (it is an implication of the expanse of the Universe, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble's_law)
CMB traveled so long (comes from so distant part of the Universe) that it got shifted really far towards "red" - to the microwaves.
 
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Your correct were not measuring Photons I was trying to relate it to the OP's question and should have been more exact. However the case still applies in that all EM forms do have a particle including radiation. Gamma rays are high energy photon rays, microwaves are photon rays with frequency 10^8 to 10^12 beta rays are electrons, alpha rays are the nuclei of of helium atoms,
Without those particles interactions and frequencies there would be no radiation.
 
As a few of the other replies have said, space itself has expanded, stretching the wavelength of those first photons.
 

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