Coordinate transformation - Rotation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the transformation of basis unit vectors during rotation, specifically how old basis vectors can be expressed in terms of new basis vectors using trigonometric principles. Participants explore the mathematical derivation and conceptual understanding of these transformations, including projections and orthonormality conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant requests a detailed explanation of how the transformation formulas for basis vectors are derived, specifically in terms of trigonometry.
  • Another participant suggests that the transformation involves projecting old basis vectors onto the new orthonormal basis, referencing the properties of orthonormal vectors.
  • Some participants challenge the correctness of earlier mathematical expressions, emphasizing the need for consistent indexing and summation in tensor notation.
  • A participant describes the geometric interpretation of the old basis vector as the hypotenuse of a right triangle formed by its projections onto the new basis vectors, invoking sine and cosine definitions.
  • Another participant proposes defining a rotation as a transformation relating two orthonormal bases, suggesting that orthonormality conditions can lead to relationships among transformation coefficients.
  • Several participants express confusion regarding the geometric representation and the process of summing projections to obtain the old basis vector.
  • One participant suggests rotating the figure to clarify the projection process, indicating a practical approach to visualizing the transformation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correctness of mathematical expressions and the clarity of geometric interpretations. There is no consensus on the best method to derive the transformation formulas or the clarity of the projections involved.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note limitations in understanding the projection process and the need for clearer geometric representations. The discussion reflects varying levels of familiarity with the mathematical concepts involved.

Quanta
ort1.jpg

ort2.jpg

How author derives these old basis unit vectors in terms of new basis vectors ? Please don't explain in two words.

\hat{e}_x = cos(\varphi)\hat{e}'_x - sin(\varphi)\hat{e}'_y
\hat{e}_y = sin(\varphi)\hat{e}'_x + cos(\varphi)\hat{e}'_y​
 
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How about one word? Trigonometry.

It is just a matter of projecting the old basis on the new. Since the new basis is orthonormal, it holds that ##\vec e_i = (\vec e_i\cdot\vec e’_j)\vec e’_j##.
 
Orodruin said:
How about one word? Trigonometry.

It is just a matter of projecting the old basis on the new. Since the new basis is orthonormal, it holds that ##\vec e_i = (\vec e_i\cdot\vec e’_j)\vec e’_j##.

We obtain:

\vec{e}_i = (\vec{e}_i \cdot \vec{e}'_j)\vec{e}'_j
\vec{e}_i = | \vec{e}_i | | \vec{e}'_j |cos(\frac{\pi}{2}+\varphi) \vec{e}'_j
\vec{e}_i = -sin(\varphi)\vec{e}'_j

Right ? But we didn't get transformation formula.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
No, you have not done it correctly. You cannot have different free indices on the different sides of the equation. Also note that repeated indices must be summed over.
 
Orodruin said:
No, you have not done it correctly. You cannot have different free indices on the different sides of the equation. Also note that repeated indices must be summed over.

\vec{e}_1 = | \vec{e}_1 | | \vec{e}'_1 |cos(\varphi) \vec{e}'_1 + | \vec{e}_1 | | \vec{e}'_2 |cos(\frac{\pi}{2}+\varphi) \vec{e}'_2
\vec{e}_1 = cos(\varphi) \vec{e}'_1 -sin(\varphi)\vec{e}'_2

\vec{e}_2 = | \vec{e}_2 | | \vec{e}'_1 |cos(\frac{\pi}{2}-\varphi) \vec{e}'_1 + | \vec{e}_2 | | \vec{e}'_2 |cos(\varphi) \vec{e}'_2
\vec{e}_2 = sin(\varphi) \vec{e}'_1 +cos(\varphi)\vec{e}'_2

Now am I right ?

But I want to understand in projection language (trigonometry) how author derives these formulas, but I didn't find explanation of unit vector basis transformation using trigonometry. I tried but didn't figured out how. Point me right direction.
 
The old basis vector is a unit vector that forms the hypothenuse of a right triangle who's other sides are its projections onto the new coordinate directions. The rest is just applying the definitions of sine and cosine in terms of the sides of a right triangle.
 
The other way around is to define a rotation as the transformation that relates two orthonormal bases. Looking at the two-dimensional case, you would have
$$
\vec e_x = a \vec e'_x + b \vec e'_y \quad \mbox{and} \quad \vec e_y = c \vec e'_x + d \vec e'_y.
$$
From here you can apply the orthonormality conditions of both systems in asserting that ##\vec e_x^2 = \vec e'^2_x = \vec e_y^2 = \vec e'^2_y = 1## and ##\vec e_x \cdot \vec e_y = \vec e'_x \cdot \vec e'_y = 0##. This will give you a set of relations among the coefficients ##a##, ##b##, ##c##, and ##d## (please derive these relations yourself). You should get three independent relations and since you have four parameters, you will be left with one free parameter (the angle of rotation). You will be able to make the interpretation of the angle of rotation by looking at the inner product between ##\vec e_x## and ##\vec e'_x##.
 
Orodruin said:
The old basis vector is a unit vector that forms the hypothenuse of a right triangle who's other sides are its projections onto the new coordinate directions. The rest is just applying the definitions of sine and cosine in terms of the sides of a right triangle.

What you said is evident from the picture, but how ? I drew it many times but cannot get sum of projections that is a old basis unit vector.
 
Quanta said:
What you said is evident from the picture, but how ? I drew it many times but cannot get sum of projections that is a old basis unit vector.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here. It is evident from the picture but it is not evident?
 
  • #10
Orodruin said:
I don't understand what you are trying to say here. It is evident from the picture but it is not evident?

How to project \hat{e}_x on \hat{e}'_x and \hat{e}'_y ?

basis.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #11
Quanta said:
How to project \hat{e}_x on \hat{e}'_x and \hat{e}'_y ?
Rotate your figure until \hat{e}'_x is horizontal. Then the projections will be obvious.
 

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