A Could QM Arise From Wilson's Ideas

[Demystifier]

Even Steven Carlip (post #6) admitted that he cannot prove that gravity needs to be quantized.

Perhaps it does not need to be quantized in a sense in which electromagnetism is quantized, but it certainly needs to be quantized in a sense in which Schrodinger cat is quantized.

 

[bhobba]

To me, that’s just mush.

Maybe it is along the lines of Gell-Mann and Hartle:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1106.0767.pdf

I do not think all the details have been worked out, but it is how I look at the emergence of a classical world from QM. Otherwise, such is a BIG problem, most definitely pointing to QM being incomplete (as Einstein sits laughing on the sidelines).

For those new to the issue, it needs to be said Einstein went through several phases in his attitude towards QM. His final position, contrary to popular myth, was that QM was correct but incomplete. Einstein took Dirac's Principles book wherever he went, and when he could not find it, he would ask: “Where is my Dirac?” Believe it or not, some scholars believe (as I am inclined to) Dirac sided with Einstein.
https://direct.mit.edu/posc/article/16/1/103/15218/Paul-Dirac-and-the-Einstein-Bohr-Debate

Thanks
Bill

 

[Quantumental]

Maybe it is along the lines of Gell-Mann and Hartle:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1106.0767.pdf

I do not think all the details have been worked out, but it is how I look at the emergence of a classical world from QM. Otherwise, such is a BIG problem, most definitely pointing to QM being incomplete (as Einstein sits laughing on the sidelines).

Isn't Gell-Mann and Hartle just Everett in chronic denial?

 

[bhobba]

Isn't Gell-Mann and Hartle just Everett in chronic denial?

One could equally say that MW is just DH with a confusing sematic waffle added:

In one, we have potentially real outcomes. In the other actually real outcomes. Some may be interested in debating the difference of such semantics - to each their own. I have mentioned it before, and it is just a personal thing; actually real is too weird for me. It's not scientific, just a personal opinion. These days whenever I read about MW, I think of the worlds as potentially real.

It is like solipsism. I can't prove it wrong. However, personally, like most people, I believe it wrong. It simply does not sit well with the world as having an independent objective existence. In probability theory, we think of the outcomes we assign probabilities to as potentially real, and one becomes actually real. We do not think of all possible outcomes as actually real. It is just a convention - but one most people hold to.

Thanks
Bill

 

[*now*]

(Another alternative could be considering just what is relevant…)

The results of this could be interesting- Frontiers | On the Possibility of Experimental Detection of the Discreteness of Time | Physics (frontiersin.org) . I think CH treats time differently, as I think other views can treat it in different ways.

 

[bhobba]

I think CH treats time differently, as I think other views can treat it in different ways.

It treats time the same as the formalism everyone agrees on does. If you want to learn about CH, see:
https://quantum.phys.cmu.edu/CHS/histories.html

Thanks
Bill

 

[*now*]

Yes, it just occurred to me to edit to correct myself, thank you, I was referring to the discussion of the arrow of time from the earlier DH paper linked, and how different views might discuss the formalism, but I won’t edit for continuity.

 

[Quantumental]

It is like solipsism. I can't prove it wrong. However, personally, like most people, I believe it wrong. It simply does not sit well with the world as having an independent objective existence. In probability theory, we think of the outcomes we assign probabilities to as potentially real, and one becomes actually real. We do not think of all possible outcomes as actually real. It is just a convention - but one most people hold to.

Thanks
Bill

Would it not be more fair to say that DH is the solipsist standpoint here? I am conscious and all empirical evidence indicates that it is due to my brain, other people have similar brain structures and behave similarly, hence assuming their consciousness is logical. In this example don't you just choose to believe that somehow, someway, one world is real for no other reason than the fact that the others cannot be observed (like consciousness of others) ?

 

[bhobba]

In this example don't you just choose to believe that somehow, someway, one world is real for no other reason than the fact that the others cannot be observed (like consciousness of others) ?

Sure. But it is what most people do. Other than realising other views are possible, and virtually everyone rejects them, it really doesn't matter. If it worries you, I think a philosophy forum is more suitable than here.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Quantumental]

Sure. But it is what most people do. Other than realising other views are possible, and virtually everyone rejects them, it really doesn't matter. If it worries you, I think a philosophy forum is more suitable than here.

Thanks
Bill

No, I was just curious if there was any logic in the interpretation of DH that lent itself to a one world view beyond denial. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs of course :)

 

[yjjiang]

Einstein was right. QM is useful, but it is not complete.

I'd say, if it is incomplete, people would have found the missing (global) hidden variables by now. Again, the problem with QM is how to interpret QM to match our intuition.

 

[bhobba]

I'd say, if it is incomplete, people would have found the missing (global) hidden variables by now. Again, the problem with QM is how to interpret QM to match our intuition.

The modern proposed incompleteness is below, say the Plank Scale, another, possibly non-quantum, theory takes over.

Thanks
Bill

 

[stevendaryl]

I'd say, if it is incomplete, people would have found the missing (global) hidden variables by now. Again, the problem with QM is how to interpret QM to match our intuition.

That's not necessarily true. It could be that there is some theory $QM+$ whose differences with ordinary $QM$ are completely negligible when the number of interacting particles is small but become important when there are, say, $10^{10}$ or more interacting particles. It would be very difficult to empirically test the difference, because we can't actually analytically study systems of many particles without making approximations.

 

[*now*]

This is a different paper than the one I posted before. It is about time with operational formulations. It doesn’t mention DH by name but does discuss some views and might be interesting here-
The arrow of time ewline in operational formulations of quantum theory (arxiv.org)

 

[physika]

That's not necessarily true. It could be that there is some theory $QM+$ whose differences with ordinary $QM$ are completely negligible when the number of interacting particles is small but become important when there are, say, $10^{10}$ or more interacting particles. It would be very difficult to empirically test the difference, because we can't actually analytically study systems of many particles without making approximations.

.
...maybe soon,
Start date 1 May 2021
End date 30 April 2027

https://www.uibk.ac.at/newsroom/13-million-euros-for-basic-quantum-research.html.en

"The Austrian-based quantum physicists Oriol Romero-Isart and Markus Aspelmeyer, together with Lukas Novotny and Romain Quidant from ETH Zurich, will receive one of the prestigious ERC Synergy Grants. Together they want to explore the limits of the quantum world by positioning a solid-state object containing billions of atoms at two locations simultaneously for the first time.

In answering this question, the Austrian-Swiss research team, supported by the EU’s Synergy Grant, now wants to take a big step forward. “We want to put a nanoparticle consisting of billions of atoms into a large superposition state,” says project coordinator Oriol Romero-Isart from the Department of Theoretical Physics at the University of Innsbruck and the Institute of Quantum Optics and Quantum Information (IQOQI) of the Austrian Academy of Sciences, describing their common goal."https://cordis.europa.eu/project/id/951234

"Q-Xtreme will bring macroscopic quantum physics to an entirely new level by preparing macroscopic quantum superpositions of objects containing billions of atoms, pushing current state-of-the-art by at least five orders of magnitude in mass.

This goal will be achieved by using a radically new approach: quantum controlling the center-of-mass motion of a levitated nanoparticle (a solid-state object of few hundred nanometers) in ultra-high vacuum by using optical, electrical and magnetic forces. Q-Xtreme requires cutting-edge expertise in photonics, nanotechnology, optoelectronics, and quantum technology, which this Synergy Group uniquely combines. The achievements of Q-Xtreme are only possible by the combined proficiency in both fundamental science and engineering of this Synergy Group.".

 

[Heidi]

I have a question but i am not sure that it is relevant here.
consider something like the Ads/Cft equivalence but where we have a 3+1 quantum theory equivalent to a holographic 2+1 quantum theory (x,y,t)
suppose that we have a measurement of z in the 3+1 space time.
what about the reality of the z result?