Cryogenic storage dewars and EM waves

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the thermal insulation properties of cryogenic storage dewars, particularly the role of vacuum and reflective surfaces in minimizing heat transfer. Participants explore the mechanisms of heat transfer, including conduction, convection, and radiation, in the context of cryogenic applications.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how a vacuum can provide thermal insulation if heat is a type of electromagnetic wave that can travel through a vacuum.
  • Another participant notes that conduction and convection are more efficient than thermal radiation, suggesting that reflective walls in the infrared spectrum enhance insulation.
  • A participant emphasizes the importance of considering radiation in the design of dewars and mentions the use of shiny surfaces, such as gold plating, to mitigate heat transfer.
  • There is a reference to a "break even" temperature around 500 K, beyond which thermal radiation increases significantly.
  • One participant shares personal experience in cryogenics, highlighting the use of multiple layers of metal-covered films for radiation shielding.
  • Another participant compares modern stainless steel flasks to older glass vacuum flasks, noting improvements in thermal insulation and durability.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the importance of both conduction/convection and radiation in thermal insulation, but there is no consensus on the specifics of how these mechanisms interact in the context of dewars.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various materials and designs used in cryogenic storage, but the discussion does not resolve the complexities of heat transfer mechanisms or the specific contributions of each method to overall insulation effectiveness.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying cryogenics, thermal insulation technologies, or the physics of heat transfer in vacuum systems.

ProjectFringe
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I was researching cryogenic storage dewars and read that, "All dewars have walls constructed from two or more layers, with a high vacuum maintained between the layers. This provides very good thermal insulation between the interior and exterior of the dewar, which reduces the rate at which the contents boil away."

I thought that heat was a type of EM wave (infrared), and as I know EM waves can travel through a vacuum. So how does a vacuum provide good thermal insulation?
 
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Conduction (and convection, if possible) is far more efficient than thermal radiation. Making the walls of the vacuum reflective in the infrared helps, too.
 
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Got it! Thanks:biggrin:
 
Indeed, if you cut a dewar in half you will find that the vacuum space is not actually empty but includes multiple layers of metal covered films ("space blanket").
While it is certainly true that convection and conduction typically will dominate heat transport, radiation is still very much something you need to consider when designing a dewar (or, more generally, a cryostat).
This is also one reason the inside of cryostats are typically very shiny (often gold plated)
 
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mfb said:
more efficient than thermal radiation.
"Break even" is around 500 K; higher temperatures "run-away" as T4.
 
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f95toli said:
Indeed, if you cut a dewar in half you will find that the vacuum space is not actually empty but includes multiple layers of metal covered films ("space blanket").
I used to work in a small cryogenics factory. I'd tell everyone I was 'a cryogenics technician specialising in installation of radiation shielding', since it sounded so much better than 'wrapping pipes in aluminium foil'.
 
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f95toli said:
Indeed, if you cut a dewar in half you will find that the vacuum space is not actually empty but includes multiple layers of metal covered films ("space blanket").
That's the flashy modern stuff. The Vacuum Flasks I used to keep my tea in were blown glass with internal silvering. I'm amazed at just how good the domestic stainless steel flasks are, compared with the old 'Thermos'. And you can drop them too!
 
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