Cryptography - transposition cipher

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    Cryptography
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the decryption process of a transposition cipher, specifically focusing on how to determine and apply the inverse permutation to decode a given encoded message. Participants explore the mechanics of permutations and their inverses in the context of cryptography.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents an encoded message and states that the inverse permutation is needed for decryption, proposing that the inverse of the permutation \(\pi = (13)(2546)\) is \((31)(6452)\).
  • Another participant explains how to determine the inverse permutation by reversing the mappings of the original permutation.
  • There is confusion regarding the application of the inverse permutation, with one participant questioning how the letters change from EES to SES.
  • Participants discuss how to express the inverse permutation in standard notation, with examples provided to illustrate the process.
  • One participant attempts to apply the inverse permutation to the encoded message but expresses uncertainty about the resulting transformations.
  • Another participant corrects a previous mistake regarding the mapping of a different permutation, emphasizing the need to accurately reflect the changes in the inverse.
  • There is a back-and-forth regarding the correct form of the inverse permutation for a given example, with some participants questioning and refining their understanding of the mappings.
  • Eventually, one participant expresses clarity on the process after further discussion, indicating a resolution of their confusion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a mix of understanding and confusion regarding the inverse permutation and its application. While some clarify their points, others remain uncertain about specific transformations, indicating that the discussion is not fully resolved.

Contextual Notes

Some participants struggle with the notation and the process of determining the inverse permutation, leading to misunderstandings in the application of the inverse to the encoded message. There are also unresolved questions about specific mappings and transformations.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in cryptography, particularly those studying transposition ciphers and permutations, may find this discussion relevant.

Rubik
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Suppose m = 6 was encoded with ther permutation [tex]\pi[/tex] = (13)(2546)

Decrypt:- EESLSHSALSESLSHBLEHSYEETHRAEOS

It turns out that the inverse of [tex]\pi[/tex] is how you decrypt the message and apply the inverse permutaion which is (31)(6452)

And the plaintext is she sells seashells...

However I am not sure how to work out the inverse function and then how to apply the inverse permutation to get that particular plain text any ideas?
 
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Rubik said:
However I am not sure how to work out the inverse function

You mean how to work out the inverse permutation?
(6,4,5,2) sends 6 to 4, 4 to 5, etc. The inverse would undo that. It would send 4 to 6, 5 to 4 etc.

and then how to apply the inverse permutation to get that particular plain text any ideas?

(3,1) interchanges the first and 3rd letters, which changes EES to SES.
 
Stephen Tashi said:
You mean how to work out the inverse permutation?
(6,4,5,2) sends 6 to 4, 4 to 5, etc. The inverse would undo that. It would send 4 to 6, 5 to 4 etc.



(3,1) interchanges the first and 3rd letters, which changes EES to SES.
I am afraid I still do not understand? Why does EES become SES? And not SEE.
 
And sorry what I meant before was how do you get the inverse permutation, so how does (13)(2546) become (31)(6452)?
 
So basically I do not see how the inverse permutation makes the letters EESLSH goe to SHESEL?
 
You are right (1,3) makes EES go to SEE, my mistake.

Let's do a simple example. Let the permutation be (1,3)(4,5,6)
This implies the mapping:
1->3
3->1
4->5
5->6
6->4

The inverse mapping reverses the process. It is:
3->1
1->3
5->4
6->5
4->6

You have to figure out how to write that mapping in the notation for permutations.
It would be (3,1) (5 4 6)

To get that you start with 3->1, then what does 1 go to? It goes back to 3, so you have finished one cyclic permutation. Then do 5->4. What does 4 go to? It goes to 6. What does 6 go to. It goes to 5, so you completed another cyclic permutation.
 
Okay so if I have pi = (124)(36)(587) then

pi inverse = (214)(63)(587)?
 
Okay so if I have pi = (124)(36)(587) then

pi inverse = (214)(63)(587)?
 
The (587) in your inverse isn't right. You need to send 8 to 5 and send 7 to 8 and so forth.
 
  • #10
Also going back to the previous example with the pi inverse = (31)(6452)

I do not understand how EESLSH goes to SHESEL

See using that invers key means 3 goes to 1 so EES become SEE, 6 goes to 4 means SEELSH goes to SEEHSL and 5 goes to 2 means SEEHSL goes to SSEHEL.. I have no idea what I am doing wrong?
 
  • #11
Sorry of course so (587) becomes (857)?
 
  • #12
Oh wait I get it now so goes to 1 means SEELSH and 6 goes to 4 means SEEHSL 4 goes to 5 means SEESHL and 5 goes to 2 means SHESEL.

Thank you so much for all your help! :D
 

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