Crystal Emission: Understanding Fundamental and Harmonic Frequencies"

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    Crystal Emission
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the electromagnetic emissions from a 25MHz crystal oscillator connected to a microprocessor or clock generator. Participants explore whether the emissions occur at the fundamental frequency or at harmonic frequencies, considering various factors such as circuit design and measurement techniques.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the crystal emits electromagnetic radiation at its fundamental frequency or its harmonic frequencies, noting that a sine wave output typically does not produce harmonics like a square wave does.
  • There is mention of the possibility that second harmonic components could arise from duty cycle issues, with inquiries about the measurement methods used to detect these harmonics.
  • One participant suggests that emissions might originate from the device interfaced with the crystal, as processors often convert sine waves to square waves, potentially generating emissions at harmonic frequencies.
  • Another participant asserts that crystals do not emit electromagnetic waves directly, as their oscillations are mechanical phenomena that require an active circuit to convert these oscillations into electrical signals that can be broadcast as electromagnetic waves.
  • It is noted that an isolated crystal cannot oscillate without an active circuit, and that non-ideal components and nonlinearities in the circuit can introduce harmonics, including even-order harmonics.
  • There is a discussion about the characteristics of square wave oscillators, which ideally consist of odd-order sine harmonics, but may also produce even-order harmonics due to circuit non-linearities.
  • One participant raises a question about the minimum trace length required for it to act as an antenna, specifically inquiring if it must be at least lambda/4.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of emissions from the crystal and the role of interfacing devices. There is no consensus on whether the emissions are primarily at the fundamental frequency or harmonics, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various factors that could influence the presence of harmonics, including circuit design, measurement techniques, and the nature of the output waveform. The discussion highlights the complexity of the interactions between mechanical and electrical phenomena in crystal oscillators.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to electronics engineers, EMC specialists, and students studying oscillator design and electromagnetic emissions in circuits.

likephysics
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Say I have a 25MHz Crystal that's connected to a Microprocessor/Microcontroller or spread spectrum clock generator. Does the crystal emit Electromagnetic radiation at its fundamental frequency or it's harmonic frequencies?

I keep hearing - " I see a peak at ~50MHz, it must be the 2nd harmonic of the crystal". I just find that hard to believe. Crystal has a sine wave output, so no harmonics unlike a square wave.
Any EMC experts care to add your 2 cents.
 
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likephysics said:
Say I have a 25MHz Crystal that's connected to a Microprocessor/Microcontroller or spread spectrum clock generator. Does the crystal emit Electromagnetic radiation at its fundamental frequency or it's harmonic frequencies?

I keep hearing - " I see a peak at ~50MHz, it must be the 2nd harmonic of the crystal". I just find that hard to believe. Crystal has a sine wave output, so no harmonics unlike a square wave.
Any EMC experts care to add your 2 cents.

2nd harmonic components would generally be from duty cycle issues. How far down from the fundamental is the 2nd harmonic component? How are you making these measurements?

It's common for fundamental mode oscillators to overtone in the 3rd harmonic on startup, but after startup, there generally is not much harmonic content (at the input side of the oscillator gate -- the waveform gets squared up a bit at the output of the gate, and hence you will get some odd harmonic content there).
 
Also, could it be emissions from the device interfaced to the crystal? I believe the processor or clock generator would be converting the sine wave to a square wave at some point. It is not uncommon for processors to give off emissions at some harmonic of their clock frequency.
 
Crystals do not emit electromagnetic waves.

Their oscillations are a mechanical phenomenon.

The mechanical oscillation between the faces alters the capacitance of the crystal. This change in capacitance can be used within an electrical circuit to turn the mechanical oscillation into an electrical one.

The electrical oscillation can then be broadcast as an electromagnetic wave via a suitable antenna.
 
likephysics said:
Say I have a 25MHz Crystal that's connected to a Microprocessor/Microcontroller or spread spectrum clock generator. Does the crystal emit Electromagnetic radiation at its fundamental frequency or it's harmonic frequencies?

An xtal sitting alone all by itself will not oscillate. In order to use an xtal as an oscillator you need an active circuit with a proper positive feedback path. Both of these elements will determine how the xtal will oscillate.

You can have a case of pure output sine wave oscillator up to a certain point. Beyond that point there will always be non-ideal stuff present due to non-ideal components and non-linearly that creates those harmonics.

You can have a case of a square wave oscillator, which ideally should be a sum of odd order sine harmonics, but because of the non-linearities present in the circuit, even order harmonics could be present as well. But these will not make a square wave into its second harmonic unless you design the oscillator really bad. That eventually leads to a comb generator, where the xtal is used in such as way as to generate nth order harmonics up to like 500 or more.
 
mdjensen22 said:
Also, could it be emissions from the device interfaced to the crystal? I believe the processor or clock generator would be converting the sine wave to a square wave at some point. It is not uncommon for processors to give off emissions at some harmonic of their clock frequency.

It could be, but not at 50MHz. The processor or clock gen output is square wave output. So Only odd harmonics, whereas 50MHz is even harmonic of base freq.
 
berkeman said:
2nd harmonic components would generally be from duty cycle issues. How far down from the fundamental is the 2nd harmonic component? How are you making these measurements?

Measured in an Anachoic chamber.
 
One more EMC question - what should the min length of the trace be to act as an Antenna?
Lambda/4?
Does it have to be lambda/4 at least or can it be lesser?
 

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