Dark Energy: Does It Affect All Space?

[binbots]

Does dark energy only affect space between galaxies? Or does it appear anywhere there is space? For example Between the Earth and the sun? Also on even smaller spaces like between a nucleus and an electron?

 

[Drakkith]

It only takes place between galaxy clusters and such.

 

[Nabeshin]

Just to elaborate on Drakkith's answer, the reason dark energy only manifests itself on scales of galaxy clusters is because smaller systems are gravitationally bound. That is to say, the gravitational force between them is effectively preventing expansion. As the objects get farther and farther apart, the gravitational force weakens, and at a certain point (~ when the things are galaxy clusters!) they are no longer bound and dark energy can cause accelerated expansion between them.

 

[e.bar.goum]

To reinterpret what Drakkith and Nabeshin said: Dark energy manifests itself everywhere (in that it is tied to space-time), but it only becomes effective at large scales.

 

[korben dallas]

To reinterpret what Drakkith and Nabeshin said: Dark energy manifests itself everywhere (in that it is tied to space-time), but it only becomes effective at large scales.

So there is dark energy everywhere, I mean like it's there between the our earth, sun , moon and all the other planets in our solar system but gravity prevents it from working or whatever it does? I take it there must have to be very little gravity, or better yet, no gravity at all, before dark energy manifests influence? What say about dark matter? Since very little is known about either dark energy or dark matter, could dark matter be dark energy that is gravity bound or are they both easily enough to detect and read to rule this out??Peace! P.S. I think I am going to have to go back to school because I only have half of my grade twelve in a Jethro Clamppet education which, in real world terms, equals a grade six, lol.

 

[Nabeshin]

So there is dark energy everywhere, I mean like it's there between the our earth, sun , moon and all the other planets in our solar system but gravity prevents it from working or whatever it does? I take it there must have to be very little gravity, or better yet, no gravity at all, before dark energy manifests influence? What say about dark matter? Since very little is known about either dark energy or dark matter, could dark matter be dark energy that is gravity bound or are they both easily enough to detect and read to rule this out??Peace! P.S. I think I am going to have to go back to school because I only have half of my grade twelve in a Jethro Clamppet education which, in real world terms, equals a grade six, lol.

The best idea that we have about what dark energy is, is that it is 'vacuum energy', that is, energy simply associated with space time. In this picture, yes it is everywhere, and only does something when gravity is sufficiently small (not zero!). Dark matter and dark energy aren't generally thought to be connected. We give them similar names, but the similarity stops there. Dark matter is something which acts like normal matter gravitationally, while dark energy acts gravitationally as a negative pressure.

 

[e.bar.goum]

So there is dark energy everywhere, I mean like it's there between the our earth, sun , moon and all the other planets in our solar system but gravity prevents it from working or whatever it does? I take it there must have to be very little gravity, or better yet, no gravity at all, before dark energy manifests influence? What say about dark matter? Since very little is known about either dark energy or dark matter, could dark matter be dark energy that is gravity bound or are they both easily enough to detect and read to rule this out??Peace!

Well, dark energy, from the cosmological constant, is energy coupled to space-time. It is then, by definition, everywhere. It's not just between our Earth and sun, it's also between the atoms in your hand. Think of it as space-time stretching, rather than acting "between the Earth and the sun". It's when you look out at space, and see things accelerating away from you at an increasing rate, that you start to notice it.

Dark matter cannot be dark energy. Simply because dark matter interacts gravitationally, ie, it's a "thing" rather than an energy (I've carefully not said a particle, but I like the idea that DM is a WIMP), it produces a different effect to dark energy. We have not been able to detect either of them, which is why we call them "dark".

 

[binbots]

Thanks everyone. So dark energy is everywhere but you can only notice it when there is little to no gravity around. Got it. I am still curious how this force works though. Let’s take the Earth for example. If it wasn’t for gravity dark energy would rip all the atoms of the Earth apart, correct? But can it also not be seen as a force that keeps the Earth together? If you could draw arrows to show direction of force could all the arrows be pointing towards the earth? Almost as if it wants to crush all matter. You can imagine it like bubbles in water. All the water pushes on the bubble which in turn gives the bubble its sphere shape, just like all the planets and stars in space. If you picture it in this manner you don’t even need gravity. Dark energy keeps things together and the other 3 forces keep them apart.

 

[Drakkith]

Thanks everyone. So dark energy is everywhere but you can only notice it when there is little to no gravity around. Got it. I am still curious how this force works though. Let’s take the Earth for example. If it wasn’t for gravity dark energy would rip all the atoms of the Earth apart, correct?

I believe the strength of the electromagnetic force between particles is more than sufficient to stop them from being ripped apart. However I am not certain.

But can it also not be seen as a force that keeps the Earth together? If you could draw arrows to show direction of force could all the arrows be pointing towards the earth? Almost as if it wants to crush all matter. You can imagine it like bubbles in water. All the water pushes on the bubble which in turn gives the bubble its sphere shape, just like all the planets and stars in space. If you picture it in this manner you don’t even need gravity. Dark energy keeps things together and the other 3 forces keep them apart.

I don't believe dark energy would act directly on the particles themselves, but on the space they occupy, meaning that they would still experience a force away from everything else. If you had to draw arrows then it would be necessary to draw arrows going out from every single point in space.

 

[e.bar.goum]

Thanks everyone. So dark energy is everywhere but you can only notice it when there is little to no gravity around. Got it. I am still curious how this force works though. Let’s take the Earth for example. If it wasn’t for gravity dark energy would rip all the atoms of the Earth apart, correct?

Since the force is tied to space time, it's more like the space gets bigger. Think of a picture of grid of lines. If you make the picture bigger, the squares made by the lines get bigger.

But can it also not be seen as a force that keeps the Earth together? If you could draw arrows to show direction of force could all the arrows be pointing towards the earth? Almost as if it wants to crush all matter. You can imagine it like bubbles in water. All the water pushes on the bubble which in turn gives the bubble its sphere shape, just like all the planets and stars in space. If you picture it in this manner you don’t even need gravity. Dark energy keeps things together and the other 3 forces keep them apart.

No, not at all really. Thinking of dark energy as a force is problematic. You can't draw arrows of the force, since it acts in all directions on all points in space. It doesn't want to crush matter at all. It doesn't give things shape, like bubbles in water, and it acts in a totally different way to gravity.

 

[binbots]

So if it expands in all directions from every point would that not mean that every point that surrounds our planet be expanding, but they will also be expanding in the direction of the earth. Almost as if matter is trapped in expanding space. Sorry if these are stupid questions, I just find it really weird that such a powerful thing like dark energy does not play a bigger role in the creation of the universe.

 

[e.bar.goum]

So if it expands in all directions from every point would that not mean that every point that surrounds our planet be expanding, but they will also be expanding in the direction of the earth. Almost as if matter is trapped in expanding space. Sorry if these are stupid questions, I just find it really weird that such a powerful thing like dark energy does not play a bigger role in the creation of the universe.

Yes, but the space in which the Earth is embedded is also expanding. Everything is expanding. The space in atoms is expanding. Nothing is "trapped", because there is no force to trap it. You really can't think about dark energy that way, it doesn't interact with matter in the usual sense. Think of it rather as the "cost of having space" - a volume of space has intrinsic, fundamental energy.

And the reason that dark energy doesn't play a huge role in the creation of the universe is that the universe is only recently dark-energy dominated. Prior to that, it was matter dominated and prior to that, radiation dominated.

 

[Drakkith]

So if it expands in all directions from every point would that not mean that every point that surrounds our planet be expanding, but they will also be expanding in the direction of the earth. Almost as if matter is trapped in expanding space. Sorry if these are stupid questions, I just find it really weird that such a powerful thing like dark energy does not play a bigger role in the creation of the universe.

Every point everywhere, including inside the Earth would be expanding.

And who says it hasn't played a role in the universe? It is responsible for the accelerating expansion, I'd say that's quite a big role, even if it might not have played a big role in the early universe.

 

[binbots]

So the space in the Earth is also expanding. Thanks, I always wondered about that. Weird how gravity seems like such a weak force but it is able to resist this expansion that is taking place everywhere, all the time and is getting faster.

 

[e.bar.goum]

So the space in the Earth is also expanding. Thanks, I always wondered about that. Weird how gravity seems like such a weak force but it is able to resist this expansion that is taking place everywhere, all the time and is getting faster.

But gravity isn't resisting the expansion!

Remember, it's energy intrinsic to space, not something gravitational forces interact with.

ETA: This isn't quite right, my apologies, see later in the thread.

 

[Drakkith]

But gravity isn't resisting the expansion!

Remember, it's energy intrinsic to space, not something gravitational forces interact with.

I'm not certain but I think that might be arguable. I think I remember a post about whether space is expanding within galaxies or whether it is suppressed because of gravity and only expands once the density of mass in the area is low enough.

 

[e.bar.goum]

I'm not certain but I think that might be arguable. I think I remember a post about whether space is expanding within galaxies or whether it is suppressed because of gravity and only expands once the density of mass in the area is low enough.

Huh. Ok. You wouldn't happen to have a source would you? No worries if you don't.

I've sworn off doing GR until February, but I'm tempted to start fiddling with Friedmann equations.

 

[twofish-quant]

But gravity isn't resisting the expansion!

Remember, it's energy intrinsic to space, not something gravitational forces interact with.

I don't think this is right. In the Einstein equations, dark energy is just a constant pressure term, but in gravitationally bound objects it's balanced out by the stress-energy tensor term.

So the "gravity that is due to matter being there" does counteract the "pressure that is everywhere."

Also all of this assumes that dark energy is the cosmological constant which isn't absolute certain.

Personally, I prefer to call this "dark pressure" than "dark energy" since global energy isn't a well defined quantity in GR.

 

[e.bar.goum]

I don't think this is right. In the Einstein equations, dark energy is just a constant pressure term, but in gravitationally bound objects it's balanced out by the stress-energy tensor term.

True enough.

I was deliberately conflating dark energy and the cosmological constant term since they seemed to be being used interchangeably (and seems to be used interchangeably in lay discussions everywhere at the moment) and I didn't want to introduce more confusion. My cosmology lecturer wouldn't approve.

 

[twofish-quant]

I was deliberately conflating dark energy and the cosmological constant term since they seemed to be being used interchangeably (and seems to be used interchangeably in lay discussions everywhere at the moment) and I didn't want to introduce more confusion. My cosmology lecturer wouldn't approve.

I worry that the explanation that dark energy is "energy that appears as space expands" is going to be one of those "almost but not quite correct" explanations that people will regret in a few years (like the metaphor that things "gain mass" as they get close to the speed of light).

 

[e.bar.goum]

I worry that the explanation that dark energy is "energy that appears as space expands" is going to be one of those "almost but not quite correct" explanations that people will regret in a few years (like the metaphor that things "gain mass" as they get close to the speed of light).

Probably, but as with many things, it's very hard to explain properly without going into the formalism of it all. Which I'm happy to do, but isn't helpful when you're talking to people without high level maths/physics.

 

[Chronos]

Under the 'big rip' scenario dark energy will eventually overcome even atomic bonds. But, it appears we still have trillions of years before that becomes as worrisome as global economic trends.

 

[e.bar.goum]

Under the 'big rip' scenario dark energy will eventually overcome even atomic bonds. But, it appears we still have trillions of years before that becomes as worrisome as global economic trends.

However, this scenario has been shown to be rather unlikely, Chandra studies have shown that the strength of dark energy isn't changing with time -ie, it behaves very similarly to the cosmological constant term. See http://www.universetoday.com/22382/no-big-rip-in-our-future-chandra-provides-insights-into-dark-energy/

And http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.2720

To quote the Nobel committee - the universe will end in ice.

 

[Chronos]

Agreed the big rip appears unlikely, but, always a conversation point. By most accounts it would not occur before most stars have already expired.

 

[binbots]

So I am still confused. Does the expansion of space have any effect on matter or gravity? On any scale?

 

[nikkkom]

So I am still confused. Does the expansion of space have any effect on matter or gravity? On any scale?

Expansion of space seems to happen everywhere uniformly both in space and time, and VERY slowly. Basically, within Earth, or even entire Solar System, it is so slow that it's hardly measurable. It may create enough "new" space between Sun and Earth to move Earth a few microns farther (a simplified picture, the reality is a bit more complex).

But when objects are millions of parsecs away and continue to fly away from each other, then those microns do add up to measurable values, which eventually make these objects seem to fly away from each other faster with time, not slower as we would expect from gravitation alone.

 

[bm0p700f]

Dark energy exisits everywhere and casue space to expand everywhere at least that what I understand.

If you have a steel metre stick and heat by 1 K you get a 11 microns extra length not really that noticeable unless you have the right kit. Have a million sticks and you get 11 metres expansion. You could detect that just by counting although it would take a long time. That how I visulise why dark energy expansion is only visible at larger scales. However if the rate of expansion get too high even atoms can become unbound hence the big rip idea.

 

[binbots]

Does this mean that the Earth itself is actually expanding aswell?

 

[bm0p700f]

I think that what post #26 and mine #27 are getting at but the expansion is too small to measure. Also matter can move in the new space so the volume the Earth occupies may not change for that reason at all.

 

[Drakkith]

Does this mean that the Earth itself is actually expanding aswell?

No, the Earth is not expanding.

 

[Tea Jay]

Every point everywhere, including inside the Earth would be expanding.

And who says it hasn't played a role in the universe? It is responsible for the accelerating expansion, I'd say that's quite a big role, even if it might not have played a big role in the early universe.

If every point, including inside the earth, were expanding, would the Earth be expanding as well? I'm assuming that due to the presence of gravity, etc, that we would not be able to measure this, but if the "fabric with the grid we're all drawn on" is expanding, that should include everything.

If the graph paper we are using for the analogy is drawn onto spacetime fabric, that has grids that are governed by local gravitational forces for example, as opposed to a logarithmic or linear rule, etc - Then the grid is influenced by all of the involved factors...but perhaps approaching zero impact for the Earth itself.

So, the impression I have is that the effect is universal, but the scale of the impact is highly variable.

 

[Drakkith]

If every point, including inside the earth, were expanding, would the Earth be expanding as well? I'm assuming that due to the presence of gravity, etc, that we would not be able to measure this, but if the "fabric with the grid we're all drawn on" is expanding, that should include everything.

No, as gravity is pulling everything together. Think of it as a massive force pulling everything into itself, and a much smaller force pushing outwards. The massive pulling force wins out. It might be 0.000000001% weaker, but it still overwhelmingly dominates.

Edit: Also, let's be clear. Are you asking about the Earth EXPANDING, or simply being slightly larger than it is without expansion but a static size?

 

[korben dallas]

If every point, including inside the earth, were expanding, would the Earth be expanding as well? I'm assuming that due to the presence of gravity, etc, that we would not be able to measure this, but if the "fabric with the grid we're all drawn on" is expanding, that should include everything.

If the graph paper we are using for the analogy is drawn onto spacetime fabric, that has grids that are governed by local gravitational forces for example, as opposed to a logarithmic or linear rule, etc - Then the grid is influenced by all of the involved factors...but perhaps approaching zero impact for the Earth itself.

So, the impression I have is that the effect is universal, but the scale of the impact is highly variable.

Everything except matter expands!