Physics Difficult looking for medical physics jobs

[medphys]

I am board certified but with less than 1 year experience post residency. I could not find a job. Even though lots of ads are there, it does not really matter because either those people who posts the ads already have persons in their heads or it requires at least 5 year experience.

Medical physics is not a real physics. People with many other backgrounds can pick it up easily. That's why it is difficult for new people finding job

I really regret to have studied medical physics and got phd and board certificate.

I hate medical physics. Medical physics working in cancer centres just perform routine work, very boring.

 

[Choppy]

With an attitude like that, it's no wonder you're having difficulty finding a job.

My experiences have been considerably different.

 

[medphys]

well you just have luck. or you have other reasons. It is not because you are qualified or not. To me having found a job in medical physics especially in radiotherapy is not directly related to your ability. Everyone who has been under training to become radiological physicists admits that to become physicists in hospital do not need much IQ (average person can do it) It is just repetitive work. This kind of philosophy is not from me it is from my two supervisors, who are ABR certified, one have 20 years experience, one has 30 years of experience.

The only reason for most people enter into radiological physics is because of high pay compared to physicists in other fields.

Also cut "attitude" off. It is crap. Attitude means nothing. Come on, you are trained scientiffically (I suppose), how can you judge people using such subjective vague-meaning word.

With an attitude like that, it's no wonder you're having difficulty finding a job.

My experiences have been considerably different.

 

[Choppy]

well you just have luck.

Yeah, that must be it. Of course, just about everyone else who finished the same programs as I did, had the same luck.

Also cut "attitude" off. It is crap. Attitude means nothing. Come on, you are trained scientiffically (I suppose), how can you judge people using such subjective vague-meaning word.

Alright, let me put it this way. You've posted twice, attacking the entire field of medical physics and those who practice it. You've made the following claims:

1. Medical physics is not a real physics.
2. People with many other backgrounds can pick it up easily.
3. I hate medical physics.
4. Medical physics working in cancer centres just perform routine work, very boring.
5. Everyone who has been under training to become radiological physicists admits that to become physicists in hospital do not need much IQ (average person can do it).
6. It is just repetitive work.
7. The only reason for most people enter into radiological physics is because of high pay compared to physicists in other fields.

These statements clearly indicate you don't have much respect for the people who work in this field and that you have a very narrow understanding of what the profession entails. Based on those observations alone, I would not hire you.

 

[jupiter13]

I might be biased here but medical physics is physics. And frankly, so is everything else in this world. I completely agree with what Choppy said. I have had my moments of weakness but I've never been angry or rude because of that. Calm down, pause, and restructure your approach to the task at hand.

Having seen a medical physics department up close, it's been pretty easy to realize it's something that takes perseverance. Please don't insult something THAT fascinating.

 

[fasterthanjoao]

To me having found a job in medical physics especially in radiotherapy is not directly related to your ability. Everyone who has been under training to become radiological physicists admits that to become physicists in hospital do not need much IQ (average person can do it)
Also cut "attitude" off. It is crap. Attitude means nothing. Come on, you are trained scientiffically (I suppose), how can you judge people using such subjective vague-meaning word.

I can't believe statements like this are coming form someone who has a PhD.

Have you ever even had any form of employment before?

I have a relative that is an HR director for an international business organisation - I once spoke to him about what the board look for when they are hiring new directors (though I feel it applies to every single position in employment). There are three things:

1. Knowledge

2. Influence

3. Drive

Knowledge makes up the things you have learned - in your case, your training in medical physics. Influence is about how you handle others, perhaps even viewed as a type of manipulation - there is a certain way of going about things when you want to progress in the workplace, knowing the 'best' way to do it will remove a lot of the difficulty. Finally, drive. Drive is the only one of the three that cannot be taught. Drive is about motivation and attitude.

If what you're saying is correct, you have knowledge but lack the other two. Just because you have a PhD and the required education does not mean you are entitled to a job. Success in the workplace isn't about who 'knows the most' - coming through a PhD I would have expected you to understand that. There is more to being a good employee and marketing yourself than pointing out that you find the work easy.

And you're saying that just because you're qualified for the position you should automatically get one? If, in interview, you come across anything like you have in your posts here, I'm not surprised you can't find a job. Ask for feedback when you come out of interviews. Perhaps when the interviewer reports that the reason you didn't get the job is because you sat insulting the profession for an hour you will appreciate that it isn't about 'luck'.

 

[medphys]

People on this board are sick. Very narrow-minded and just look at things in their own way. I don't understand how people here are educated. Or is it just the standard for obtaining a phd or master's in medical physics is so low compared to other fields that people with medical physics graduate degree are actually just average persons ( I mean does not need any talent).

I am stating the fact: job market is not as boasted as those people like here do. Tim Solberg (I suppose you know who he is) also mentioned this year that many physicists with less experience find it hard to land jobs. What he said is similar to my experience and other physicists I know.

Radiological physicists are real scientists or just glorified technicians? go to an Issue in Medical Physics in which Point/counterpoint mentioned it.

I mean medical physicists please face the fact, do you agree clinical physics are easy. I see many people with no physics background can do physics work easily... It is OK people here refuse to admit it because your life income depends on it and your pride may be hurt by admitting it. But you cannot warp the truth.

 

[medphys]

I can immediately point out the weakness in your argument. How can you generalize the situation in your own program to other people and then make a conclusion? Does it show that medical physics really does not need true scientific training or education. Does this reinforce my statement that average people (even high school graduates) can do physics job in hospital?

Yeah, that must be it. Of course, just about everyone else who finished the same programs as I did, had the same luck.

 

[Choppy]

Medphys - please stop insulting medical physicists and other posters on these boards.

If you want to debate aspects of the medical physics profession I'm all for it. Show me some data and we (and others) can hash it out. If you want advice about the field, I have a fair amount of experience that I'm willing to share. But if you're just going to repeat claims that it only takes a high school graduate to do medical physics tasks, I'm not going to play with you.

 

[fasterthanjoao]

Medphys - please stop insulting medical physicists and other posters on these boards.

If you want to debate aspects of the medical physics profession I'm all for it. Show me some data and we (and others) can hash it out. If you want advice about the field, I have a fair amount of experience that I'm willing to share. But if you're just going to repeat claims that it only takes a high school graduate to do medical physics tasks, I'm not going to play with you.

Well said. Medphys appears simply to be a bitter individual who wants nothing more than to rant.

 

[medphys]

As I have said, I am stating the fact, if you take the fact as insulting. I have nothing to say.

Medphys - please stop insulting medical physicists and other posters on these boards.

If you want to debate aspects of the medical physics profession I'm all for it. Show me some data and we (and others) can hash it out. If you want advice about the field, I have a fair amount of experience that I'm willing to share. But if you're just going to repeat claims that it only takes a high school graduate to do medical physics tasks, I'm not going to play with you.

 

[Dembadon]

As I have said, I am stating the fact, if you take the fact as insulting. I have nothing to say.

No, you're not. You've stated your opinions. You've posted zero data/statistics to back up your assertions.

Facts are backed up by data, not opinions. If you can't be bothered to provide any evidence to support your claims, then I don't think this is the right forum for you.

 

[medphys]

How come people on this board just turn the blind eyes to some truth which is not favorable in their own way? I am speechless. It is like emperor's new clothes story. One "physicist" said medical physics is wondrful, blah blah and other ignorant so called "physicists" do not use their brain and just follow suit. Until one person who knows what is going on and point out the bare fact. Then he is regarded as different.

Go to the Medical Physics. or if you are practicing radiological physics in a hospital. You know what is going on. Isnt that fact? The fact which is experienced every day by practicing radiological physicist. Unless you still bury your head in the sand.

Radiological physicists working in hospital are just technicians. Do you think commissioning, QA, acceptance testing, developing procedures, treatment planning need much advanced math physics and biology? It is more like a routine job. I do not question rad phys as a profession, I just question that rad phys does not deserve phd degree granting privileges. It is artificially heightened somewhat by financial reasons. Practicing rad phys does not need phd or even masters. It just needs practical training, like lock-smith, machinists, it needs apprenticeship, not master's or phd degrees. Any one who work in hospital as a rad phys should know what they do every day.

 

[kylem]

Your first post says that you could not find a job in the field of medical physics.

How do you know all of these "facts?"

 

[medphys]

Do you think commissioning TPS system, you really have to know the algorithm inside out? like you really have to understand collapsed-cone method to commission TPS? Do you really have to understand conjugate gradient optimization to commission IMRT TPS, what you need to do is just know those fancy words and follow what the commercial suppliers give you and then you do measurements and commission it. You don't need phd or even masters to do it.

|for QA, do you need phd to check interlocks? Do you need phd to use PermaDoc to check HDR source position? Do you need phd to calibration machines? Do you need phd to use mapcheck to do IMRT QA

for chart check, one thing you check is MU, it only involves addition, subtraction, multiplication and division and some simple geometry, which primary school math is way sufficient. Other things are routine documentations. Do you think your training in phd is useful for these? I would say apprentice for a high school graduate should do this competently.

I mean for rad phys in hospital, that just a technician job, you don't need academical training like phd or masters. YOu can even hire a high school graduate to train them on these practical things and he/she can accomplish jobs.

Many dosimetrists only have high school diploma or associate degrees, yet they can do plans well. They can do chart check, QA with no problems. I have not seen those people do machine output calibration because of strict regulation. but they can do them equally well as rad phys...

 

[medphys]

I said I have gone through residency and am board certified and I have
registration in the state where I work. (My state is not NY, FL, TX, HI, no need for license). My responsiblity is the same as rad phys with really small pay (almost like volunteer) because no offical job for me. That's why I know what rad phys are doing. Rad phys can deceive those who really don't know it but not me!

Your first post says that you could not find a job in the field of medical physics.

How do you know all of these "facts?"

 

[NeoDevin]

Most of the day to day clinical work is "technician" style work, taking measurements and making sure everything is within tolerance (many places have the residents and grad students do most of these measurements). When a machine parameter is out of tolerance is when the physics background is important. A medical physicist must understand what can cause errors, what impact those errors might have on patient treatment, and what, if anything, can be done to remedy those errors (whether it can be adjusted in house, or if maintenance people need to be called).

Your further error is to assume that clinical work is the only option for a medical physicist: There is a lot of active research going on in IMRT, MRI, and especially IGAR (to name a few popular areas).

You seem to be projecting your bad experiences on the whole field of medical physics, based on relatively little knowledge of the breadth of the field, and with no supporting data to defend your position (other than "I told you so", which does not qualify as data).

You then proceed to get upset with people posting their experiences which are different from your own. Why should we accept your anecdote and not Choppy's?

My own observations of others (I'm still a student, so haven't been looking for a job myself yet) have been more in line with Choppy's experience than with yours, in that everyone I know who has finished their residency hasn't had any trouble finding employement. Why do you refuse to accept that the problem you are having in finding employment as a medical physicist probably stems from you, as opposed to the field?

 

[medphys]

First don`t say `your further error`` I have restricted it to rad phys in hospital who 99% do not do any meaningful research, although some claim they do research, which is just garbage research. Look at posters on AAPM conference...You know the quality of them...

Even all these causes of error, impact on patient only needs technical skills not some kind of phd or masters training. You already misinterpreted my point. That is why so many people on this board still think they are right yet totally do not understand what other people say.

So you are still a student, once you have experienced all this on your own, then you may have better idea of what rad phys is. Don`t just listen to what rad phys say or spend just a few days observing what they do, you are easily deceived by their superficial pomposity.

And you have already violated one rule in medical physics community, which says if you have less experience than me, your words are less trustable.

Most of the day to day clinical work is "technician" style work, taking measurements and making sure everything is within tolerance (many places have the residents and grad students do most of these measurements). When a machine parameter is out of tolerance is when the physics background is important. A medical physicist must understand what can cause errors, what impact those errors might have on patient treatment, and what, if anything, can be done to remedy those errors (whether it can be adjusted in house, or if maintenance people need to be called).

Your further error is to assume that clinical work is the only option for a medical physicist: There is a lot of active research going on in IMRT, MRI, and especially IGAR (to name a few popular areas).

You seem to be projecting your bad experiences on the whole field of medical physics, based on relatively little knowledge of the breadth of the field, and with no supporting data to defend your position (other than "I told you so", which does not qualify as data).

You then proceed to get upset with people posting their experiences which are different from your own. Why should we accept your anecdote and not Choppy's?

My own observations of others (I'm still a student, so haven't been looking for a job myself yet) have been more in line with Choppy's experience than with yours, in that everyone I know who has finished their residency hasn't had any trouble finding employement. Why do you refuse to accept that the problem you are having in finding employment as a medical physicist probably stems from you, as opposed to the field?

 

[NeoDevin]

And you have already violated one rule in medical physics community, which says if you have less experience than me, your words are less trustable.

Apparently my advisor forgot to mention these "rules". I generally judge people's words by their content, rather than their experience. I have heard a lot of people with a lot more experience than I have say a lot of ignorant things. I have also heard people with less experience than I have say some pretty insightful things. I'll give you three guesses as to which category you fall in.

Don't suppose you could refer me to the AAPM list of "rules", and point out where it includes this? Didn't think so...

 

[medphys]

Of course this rule is not blatantly written anywhere, but people, volunteerily or non-volenteerily have to obey it.

I used to think the same way you think, judging people by the content not by experience, but this was when I was a student. when I got into real workplace, things are totally different. You are a student so you still live in ivory tower.

Rad phys in hospital is not a thing black and white.

I bet most people will yield to their stupid senior physicists or chief physicists even those people know they are wrong, because they have to keep their job, at that time you would not think who is right who is wrong. The only thing you care is who can hire or fire you and kiss their ***.

you can still enjoy your rightfulness when you are a student. When you work you will totally change, I have seen some physicists like this

This is one of the reasons that I don't think medical physics qualifies for phd granting privilege. almost anything is in gray area. For example, judging whether a treatment plan is good or not good, one can trash a plan use one argument yet can praise the same plan use another argument. All these depend on how that physicist interpret it. you just bend yourself to your higher-ups. This is harsh truth in rad phys community although it is not reight and not healthy

Apparently my advisor forgot to mention these "rules". I generally judge people's words by their content, rather than their experience. I have heard a lot of people with a lot more experience than I have say a lot of ignorant things. I have also heard people with less experience than I have say some pretty insightful things. I'll give you three guesses as to which category you fall in.

Don't suppose you could refer me to the AAPM list of "rules", and point out where it includes this? Didn't think so...

 

[Choppy]

Medphys, do you see the circular agrument that you're making?

You assert that clinical physics is routine work and doesn't require knowledge of physics or math beyond a high school level. Someone else counters with examples where this is not the case. Your recourse is then to modify your assertion to exclude those examples. You might as well state that routine work is routine.

I'm sure you can find examples of clinical physicists who get by doing what is essentially QA work, who don't understand the principles behind a superposition-convolution dose calculation algorithm or an IMRT beamlet optimization process or any number of other principles behind the work done in the profession. But that's NOT what the profession is limited to. One just as easily make the argument that you don't need 4 years of medical school and a two year residency to prescribe amoxicillin or refer to a specialist, but you can't because that's limiting the entire practice of a profession to its most routine acts.

You might as well argue that you don't need brakes in a car because 99% of the time you just use the throttle and steering.

Ultimately, it's medical physicists who develop those algorithms, who produce the task group reports on which the spreadsheets are based, who invent and develop the technology introduced into the clinic, who work for the companies on the other end of the technical support line (when the front-line tech doesn't have the answer you need).
You might want to check out the counter-point in that MedPhys article you mentioned.

I would also add that NeoDevin hit the nail on the head above. You need a physicist in the clinic for when things don't work properly, for when those monitor unit hand calculations don't agree with those of your treatment planning system, for when your measurements don't agree with expected values, for when the radiation oncologist wants to try something out of the ordinary, for when a new technology comes along that requires you to figure out something that isn't handed to you by the manufacturer, for when the manufacturer's code has a bug in it, for when you want to design and build your own devices, etc.

And if your argument against NeoDevin is that he is incorrect based solely on the fact that he has less experience than you and therefore must believe anything you say... man, that's just sad.

 

[medphys]

After reading your statement because you don't even bother to clear your head first and even try to understand other people's information. Look at how low standard medical physicists (most of them are low and slow) are produced yet they think in their head they are smart.

My points are so clear that I don't want to waste my time to repeat them. I just want to give students who have not decided whether they want to get into so called medical physics program, so they will not be influenced by one sided story.

The low standard in medical physics results in so many so-called physicists which leads to difficulty in job market.

If a student is content to doing technician's work without using their brain too much after phd or master's training, he/she is a candidate for rad phys. If a student wants more challenging work in the sense of real science (not technician's) if he/she wants to think deeply and bring real change, rad phys is not your choice.

I also encourage people to read this: Medical Physics (Vol. 37 issue 4 pp1739–1381) Do you think you know better than director of the clinical physicists in MSKCC?

I am not going to say anything more here because people on this board usually do not have medical physics experience and/or narrow-minded. I hope my advice is useful to those who entertain to get into med phys program. Be cautious! The program of course wants more students, it never pictures students' future. It is the program's interest to get more students ( of course it can afford and sets up some so-called standard) so it has more influence and the program director has more interest.

 

[WhatIhavetoSa]

Medphys, do you see the circular agrument that you're making?

You assert that clinical physics is routine work and doesn't require knowledge of physics or math beyond a high school level. Someone else counters with examples where this is not the case. Your recourse is then to modify your assertion to exclude those examples. You might as well state that routine work is routine.

I'm sure you can find examples of clinical physicists who get by doing what is essentially QA work, who don't understand the principles behind a superposition-convolution dose calculation algorithm or an IMRT beamlet optimization process or any number of other principles behind the work done in the profession. But that's NOT what the profession is limited to. One just as easily make the argument that you don't need 4 years of medical school and a two year residency to prescribe amoxicillin or refer to a specialist, but you can't because that's limiting the entire practice of a profession to its most routine acts.

You might as well argue that you don't need brakes in a car because 99% of the time you just use the throttle and steering.

Ultimately, it's medical physicists who develop those algorithms, who produce the task group reports on which the spreadsheets are based, who invent and develop the technology introduced into the clinic, who work for the companies on the other end of the technical support line (when the front-line tech doesn't have the answer you need).
You might want to check out the counter-point in that MedPhys article you mentioned.

I would also add that NeoDevin hit the nail on the head above. You need a physicist in the clinic for when things don't work properly, for when those monitor unit hand calculations don't agree with those of your treatment planning system, for when your measurements don't agree with expected values, for when the radiation oncologist wants to try something out of the ordinary, for when a new technology comes along that requires you to figure out something that isn't handed to you by the manufacturer, for when the manufacturer's code has a bug in it, for when you want to design and build your own devices, etc.

And if your argument against NeoDevin is that he is incorrect based solely on the fact that he has less experience than you and therefore must believe anything you say... man, that's just sad.

I couldn't agree more. I will give it a try now to communicate with this medphys individual and see how it proceeds.

 

[Gruxg]

Greetings from Europe. I'd like to give my opinion as a clinical medical physicist. There are some differences between USA and my country (salaries, way to access to the profession, regulatory issues, etc) but this field is inherently global and we all share the same goals, use the same methods, read the same journals and even probably have studied the same books, so the profession is basically the same everywhere.

I don't approve the disrespect shown by medphys ('people on this board are sick', etc.) , but I agree in some points with him/her.

To do a good job as a clinical physicist in a hospital is not necessary to be phd at all. Actually, I think it is not necessary to be a physicist, because what we do is not Physics. Perhaps it was many years ago, but not now. Of course I am referring only to the clinical medical physicist working in hospitals (the vast majority of us), not to the physicist doing research at university or developing technology in the industry. Behind new developments there are some people that we could consider as medical physicist, although most of them are experts in computing, monte carlo methods, specific engineering fields...etc, not in "medical physics" in general.

It doesn't mean that everybody could do our job. It is necessary some theoretical background and a considerable practical expertise. Maybe the word "technician" doesn't sound very well, but clinical medical physicist are technicians in the same way as a surgeon or an engineer is a technician, they are not scientist. In fact, our work is much closer to engineering than to physics. We need to know some physics, as physicians need to know some biology but they don't work in biology.

Let's be honest with ourselves, How many times have you seen a clinical physicist using for his/her job in a hospital something like the Newton laws, the Schrodinger equation, thermodynamics, electrodynamics, differential equations, or any advanced physics or maths?. In six years and two hospitals I havent't found an opportunity. I think our job is called "medical physics" mainly for historical reasons and because we don't want to be mixed with other "lower level" professionals called technicians or technologist.

Edit:
P.D: We are having problems with the access to 'Medical Physics' in my institution and I cannot read the point-counterpoint you refer to. Is it possible to send a copy to gruxg@yahoo.es?.

 

[WhatIhavetoSa]

Greetings from Europe. I'd like to give my opinion as a clinical medical physicist. There are some differences between USA and my country (salaries, way to access to the profession, regulatory issues, etc) but this field is inherently global and we all share the same goals, use the same methods, read the same journals and even probably have studied the same books, so the profession is basically the same everywhere.

I don't approve the disrespect shown by medphys ('people on this board are sick', etc.) , but I agree in some points with him/her.

To do a good job as a clinical physicist in a hospital is not necessary to be phd at all. Actually, I think it is not necessary to be a physicist, because what we do is not Physics. Perhaps it was many years ago, but not now. Of course I am referring only to the clinical medical physicist working in hospitals (the vast majority of us), not to the physicist doing research at university or developing technology in the industry. Behind new developments there are some people that we could consider as medical physicist, although most of them are experts in computing, monte carlo methods, specific engineering fields...etc, not in "medical physics" in general.

It doesn't mean that everybody could do our job. It is necessary some theoretical background and a considerable practical expertise. Maybe the word "technician" doesn't sound very well, but clinical medical physicist are technicians in the same way as a surgeon or an engineer is a technician, they are not scientist. In fact, our work is much closer to engineering than to physics. We need to know some physics, as physicians need to know some biology but they don't work in biology.

Let's be honest with ourselves, How many times have you seen a clinical physicist using for his/her job in a hospital something like the Newton laws, the Schrodinger equation, thermodynamics, electrodynamics, differential equations, or any advanced physics or maths?. In six years and two hospitals I havent't found an opportunity. I think our job is called "medical physics" mainly for historical reasons and because we don't want to be mixed with other "lower level" professionals called technicians or technologist.

Edit:
P.D: We are having problems with the access to 'Medical Physics' in my institution and I cannot read the point-counterpoint you refer to. Is it possible to send a copy to gruxg@yahoo.es?.

I disagree with the notion that you don't need physics to do medical physics. Let us be precise. Let's say you need to figure out the temperature and pressure correction and you don't have the formula. Can you derive it? Thermodynamics is needed to do that. While commissioning a cyberknife we had to utilize some understanding of "phase space" and "electromagnetism". If you want to you can use differential equations to model how the tracker readings fluctuate. You need equations from electromagnetism to estimate the leakage of a cable and check if there is too much leakage. You need to have an understanding of how things work. For example, the ion chamber and realize why it is made the way it is and what can go wrong. Ultimately, it is the problem solving capability of a physicist that is one of the most important capacities a physicist brings to the table. If no water is coming out of the water tank, there is enough water and the pumps are working just fine, what do you think is the problem? Well, if you have some understanding of fluid dynamics you might be able to conclude what is going on right away as opposed to wasting half an hour trying to figure things out or even postponing an Annual. I could go on and on. But seriously, in what physics related job do you employ the fundamental concepts of physics day in and day out? Let's take a particle physicist. Do you have any idea about what they spend majority of their time doing? Write computer programs. What does the civil engineer do when he is designing a bridge? He uses a software and of course dose stress tests etc. Even in physics research positions, do you get to use physics all, majority or even quarter of the time? The answer is NO. To say that you don't need physics to do medical physics ultimately is dependent on legality and morality. Do you want to treat the patients as well as you can with existing technology and make sure that an accident never happens, since you know, these are human beings we are dealing with? Then of course, you need physicists. I was going to reply to medphys, but apparently he is talking about our heads not being right or something. Well does he mean the whole head or the brain in it? For example, our nose, skull, cheek, chin- are all these contributing to not understanding his point too? Ya, disrespect is no way to go. But when you are in your mid thirties and bitter, I guess that's how you might behave. And how can you be ABR certified and not be employed as a full time physicist! I am just wondering. Thanks for reading

 

[medphys]

Finally, someone with real medical physics (work in hospital) experience speaks up!

I already sent you a copy of point/counterpoint

Greetings from Europe. I'd like to give my opinion as a clinical medical physicist. There are some differences between USA and my country (salaries, way to access to the profession, regulatory issues, etc) but this field is inherently global and we all share the same goals, use the same methods, read the same journals and even probably have studied the same books, so the profession is basically the same everywhere.

I don't approve the disrespect shown by medphys ('people on this board are sick', etc.) , but I agree in some points with him/her.

To do a good job as a clinical physicist in a hospital is not necessary to be phd at all. Actually, I think it is not necessary to be a physicist, because what we do is not Physics. Perhaps it was many years ago, but not now. Of course I am referring only to the clinical medical physicist working in hospitals (the vast majority of us), not to the physicist doing research at university or developing technology in the industry. Behind new developments there are some people that we could consider as medical physicist, although most of them are experts in computing, monte carlo methods, specific engineering fields...etc, not in "medical physics" in general.

It doesn't mean that everybody could do our job. It is necessary some theoretical background and a considerable practical expertise. Maybe the word "technician" doesn't sound very well, but clinical medical physicist are technicians in the same way as a surgeon or an engineer is a technician, they are not scientist. In fact, our work is much closer to engineering than to physics. We need to know some physics, as physicians need to know some biology but they don't work in biology.

Let's be honest with ourselves, How many times have you seen a clinical physicist using for his/her job in a hospital something like the Newton laws, the Schrodinger equation, thermodynamics, electrodynamics, differential equations, or any advanced physics or maths?. In six years and two hospitals I havent't found an opportunity. I think our job is called "medical physics" mainly for historical reasons and because we don't want to be mixed with other "lower level" professionals called technicians or technologist.

Edit:
P.D: We are having problems with the access to 'Medical Physics' in my institution and I cannot read the point-counterpoint you refer to. Is it possible to send a copy to gruxg@yahoo.es?.

 

[Gruxg]

I disagree with the notion that you don't need physics to do medical physics. [...] To say that you don't need physics to do medical physics ultimately is dependent on legality and morality

I haven't said that you don't need physics. I have said "We need to know some physics, as physicians need to know some biology but they don't work in biology."

Engineers also need physics, but in general they don't work as physicist. Perhaps we have different concepts of what physics is. There is not a clear frontier, but I don't feel to be working as a physicist. And I am not one of these guys who think that physics is only theoretical physics.

Do you want to treat the patients as well as you can with existing technology and make sure that an accident never happens, since you know, these are human beings we are dealing with?

Of course.

Then of course, you need physicists.

You need what we call "medical physicist", but I know some engineers and a chemist who became "medical physicist" (by postgraduate studies/residency) ¿do you think they are physicist even although they didn't graduate in physics?. Or do you think they cannot do our job?

 

[medphys]

These people get confused with what real physicists do. They think any profession which applies some shallow physics can be called physics profession. If this is true, most engineers are physicists too (in fact engineers have totally different way of thinking compared to real physicists) Medical Physics is not real physics, unfortunately the name sticks and has misled many naive people. Since it is not diffcult to pick it up, many people with no physics background can do the job after practical training thus can easily get into profession. So job hunting to some extent becomes an issue of networking, not based on one's qualification because anyone can do it.

I disagree with the notion that you don't need physics to do medical physics. Let us be precise. Let's say you need to figure out the temperature and pressure correction and you don't have the formula. Can you derive it? Thermodynamics is needed to do that. While commissioning a cyberknife we had to utilize some understanding of "phase space" and "electromagnetism". If you want to you can use differential equations to model how the tracker readings fluctuate. You need equations from electromagnetism to estimate the leakage of a cable and check if there is too much leakage. You need to have an understanding of how things work. For example, the ion chamber and realize why it is made the way it is and what can go wrong. Ultimately, it is the problem solving capability of a physicist that is one of the most important capacities a physicist brings to the table. If no water is coming out of the water tank, there is enough water and the pumps are working just fine, what do you think is the problem? Well, if you have some understanding of fluid dynamics you might be able to conclude what is going on right away as opposed to wasting half an hour trying to figure things out or even postponing an Annual. I could go on and on. But seriously, in what physics related job do you employ the fundamental concepts of physics day in and day out? Let's take a particle physicist. Do you have any idea about what they spend majority of their time doing? Write computer programs. What does the civil engineer do when he is designing a bridge? He uses a software and of course dose stress tests etc. Even in physics research positions, do you get to use physics all, majority or even quarter of the time? The answer is NO. To say that you don't need physics to do medical physics ultimately is dependent on legality and morality. Do you want to treat the patients as well as you can with existing technology and make sure that an accident never happens, since you know, these are human beings we are dealing with? Then of course, you need physicists. I was going to reply to medphys, but apparently he is talking about our heads not being right or something. Well does he mean the whole head or the brain in it? For example, our nose, skull, cheek, chin- are all these contributing to not understanding his point too? Ya, disrespect is no way to go. But when you are in your mid thirties and bitter, I guess that's how you might behave. And how can you be ABR certified and not be employed as a full time physicist! I am just wondering. Thanks for reading

 

[Razael]

No offense Medphys, but you don't sound like someone I'd want to be around on a daily basis. This is probably why you've yet to find a job.

 

[GreatEscapist]

*raises eyebrow*

Why the hell did you go into the field if you hate it so damn much?

First of all: attitude does count. Who'd want to hire a whiny person complain about doing their job all day, especially when they feel that their job isn't important? Nothing will get accomplished.

People want to hire someone who can feel good about what they are doing, so they do their best.

Second: Perhaps you should look for a different job. One that's more suited for your mighty amounts of knowledge, since you find them very useful. Those darn high school kids could do your job any day, allegedly, so let them.

If you want to actually get a job, take your foot out of your mouth, and get a different attitude. I hope this is just your attitude towards med phys, and not things in general. If this is the way you look at everything- good luck finding a job. *salutes*

 

[qball]

To do a good job as a clinical physicist in a hospital is not necessary to be phd at all. Actually, I think it is not necessary to be a physicist, because what we do is not Physics. Perhaps it was many years ago, but not now. Of course I am referring only to the clinical medical physicist working in hospitals (the vast majority of us), not to the physicist doing research at university or developing technology in the industry. Behind new developments there are some people that we could consider as medical physicist, although most of them are experts in computing, monte carlo methods, specific engineering fields...etc, not in "medical physics" in general.

I have made a similar argument previously, in another thread. I completely agree with this statement. Many fields of medical physics involve research but it is nothing like physics research. Nothing.

I wonder if this is the argument medphys is trying to make. To me he sounds like someone jaded that medical physics as a career didn't turn out to be as intellectually fulfilling as he expected it to be. This is largely the fault of graduate programs which still market medical physics at physics graduates and promise them a field where they can apply their undergraduate knowledge. I mean, hell, I haven't seen the Schrodinger equation, Maxwell's equations, or even so much as geometrical vector in over 2 years -- but I have done a lot of memorizing of dosimetric ratios and calculational algorithms, neither of which I particularly care to learn.

Now that medphys has elaborated on his argument (i.e. he has moved beyond pure insults) I tend to agree with his general assertion. It seems that the clinical physicists I have met have all relied on a single calculational technique -- blame every caclulational error on scatter.

I can definitely see how one can be disappointed with clinical physics, especially if one has a natural inclination toward understanding nature and solving problems. Clinical medical physics (or even med. phys. in general) provides no great depth of understanding into the natural processes that govern radiation oncology. For instance, medical "physicists" are still treating the body as if it were a pure water phantom. Really? Come on. 100 years of physics research and the best you can come up with is "pretend the body is made of water." Yeah, it's close enough for most calculations, but is it really the best we can do?

To further make my point some of the most successful students I have seen in medical physics programs have had engineering backgrounds and not physics. What makes engineers so successful? Could it be that they are trained to accept only a superficial understanding of concepts and parrot them back when asked to do so?

Now, before Choppy starts replying about all the great partial differential equations he has to solve numerically and in his head on a daily basis I have to say I find it hard to believe that most problems that arise in the clinic actually require a deep theoretical knowledge to solve them. To quote a previous example, what happens when MU calculations aren't coming out correctly? Well, it's possible that you have discovered some new physical process by which electrons interact in your solid water phantom, but most likely the ion chamber needs to be recalibrated. That, or you miscalculated.

Let's be honest about what's going on here. All the board exams and degree requirements are not strictly necessary to be a competent "medical physicist." That's why the AAPM is considering a PDMP (professional doctorate) program. So one cannot argue that a research degree and all the problems solving abilities it supposedly confers is strictly necessary to be a good medical physicist if the AAPM is seriously considering a professional program. A professional program would remove any vestige of a medical physics being a supposedly academic degree and put medical physics on the same playing field as, say, a 2-year technical degree in automotive maintenance.

/soapbox

 

[qball]

*raises eyebrow*

Why the hell did you go into the field if you hate it so damn much?

First of all: attitude does count. Who'd want to hire a whiny person complain about doing their job all day, especially when they feel that their job isn't important? Nothing will get accomplished.

People want to hire someone who can feel good about what they are doing, so they do their best.

Second: Perhaps you should look for a different job. One that's more suited for your mighty amounts of knowledge, since you find them very useful. Those darn high school kids could do your job any day, allegedly, so let them.

If you want to actually get a job, take your foot out of your mouth, and get a different attitude. I hope this is just your attitude towards med phys, and not things in general. If this is the way you look at everything- good luck finding a job. *salutes*

He probably went into the field for the same reason many of go into the field. We want jobs, we want to make a decent salary, and we don't want to be computer programmers.

 

[medphys]

LOL, Choppy said new physical process may be discovered from MU calc? That is not possible. All physics has been found long time ago (simply put, three main processes and Raleigh scattering which hardly deposits any dose) 99.9999% YOUR calc is wrong, 0.0001% TPS coding error. you chance to find new physics through routine MU calc is 0. Millions of dollars are invested to experiments to find new physics, how laughable you think simple MU calc can lead to discovering new physics.

present med phys is not phys at all, Ask how many med phys can solve 1D harmonic oscilator uring schrodinger equ? none. How many can derive klein-nishina formula (compton scattering) none. yet all these are like primary school stuff for real physcs. The four core courses in physics, classical mechanics, electrodynamic, quantum mechanics and statistical mechanics, how many med phys know it? med phys don't need it at all in clinical environment, even not in research. Look at papers in medical physics and phys med biol, all those research is just simple geometry, some mathematics some computer coding, but no physics. It is ironic.

For medical physics, how many med phys can correctly state assumptions in Bragg-Gray theory and Spencer-Attix theory and derive them? maybe a few but not many. Now we are using TG51 we don't even see them. Years ago, we used TG21, the formula was a little more complivcated, but you don't need to understand the theory, you just apply it.

med phys is about memory and practical experience, not about true reasoning and exploring. More like an engineer. You just apply those formulas, don't need to understand them in a deeper way.

I just mean med phys is not an appropriate name the true reflecting the nature of med phys.

Also because of low-standard and easiness, many can learn it quick which makes job market so bad.

 

[qball]

LOL, Choppy said new physical process may be discovered from MU calc? That is not possible. All physics has been found long time ago (simply put, three main processes and Raleigh scattering which hardly deposits any dose) 99.9999% YOUR calc is wrong, 0.0001% TPS coding error. you chance to find new physics through routine MU calc is 0. Millions of dollars are invested to experiments to find new physics, how laughable you think simple MU calc can lead to discovering new physics.

present med phys is not phys at all, Ask how many med phys can solve 1D harmonic oscilator uring schrodinger equ? none. How many can derive klein-nishina formula (compton scattering) none. yet all these are like primary school stuff for real physcs.

For medical physics, how many med phys can correctly state assumptions in Bragg-Gray theory and Spencer-Attix theory and derive them? maybe a few but not many. Now we are using TG51 we don't even see it. Before we used TG21, the formula is a little more complivcated, but you don't need to understand the theory, you just apply it.

med phys is about memory and practical experience, not about reasoning and exploring. More like an engineer. You just apply those formulas, don't need to understand them in a deeper way.

Please make it clear who you are talking to. I was defending your arguments.

 

[medphys]

Yes, went into the field because I heard the rumor that jobs will be waiting for you. another reason is that those so called med phys gave me false impression in med phys

He probably went into the field for the same reason many of go into the field. We want jobs, we want to make a decent salary, and we don't want to be computer programmers.

 

[medphys]

I am not a loose canon. I do not intend to write this to you. I know you have good arguments and agree with me. I am talking to Choppy and other people who still don't see the fact.

Please make it clear who you are talking to. I was defending your arguments.

 

[NeoDevin]

LOL, Choppy said new physical process may be discovered from MU calc? That is not possible.

I'm trying to find where he claimed that, and having trouble. Don't suppose you could quote the relevant section?

 

[medphys]

Another thing I don't see med phys as phys because they tend to use buzz fancy words to artificially elevate the importance which is usually contempted by real expert. Like why we call 4DCT? It is just a combintation of a series of 3DCT nothing special. When real physicists say 4D it means something. It means time and space are intrinsically related and cannot be separated, demonstrated by Lorentz tranformation (Poincare group). However, "4DCT" is just a set of 3DCT taken at different counch positions, there is not time space physical correlation. It does not qualify the name 4D. I bet the physicitst who propsed the 4D name have never truly understood the special theory of relativity. You think those med phys are real phys? absolutely not! They don't even understand the 3rd year physics course: special theory of relativity. However, if they claim they are technicians, they may get away with it becasue we knoe technicians are not supposed to understand things, they just do things by rote and if problems occur, use memory and experience.

 

[Choppy]

Wow - I go away for a few days and all of a sudden people are attributing all sorts of stuff to me.

I'm fairly certiain I never claimed new physical processes would be discovered during a monitor unit calculation.

The argument here is largely a philosophical one. Qball and I disagree on what constitutes physics as applied in a profession. Medical physics is applied physics. I'm not sure that I've ever claimed anything to the contrary. You're not going to discover a new particle, or a new fundamental interaction by studying it.

But then again - who thought that it did? I mean, do you think there are really undergrads out there who think that medical physics is the key to deriving a TOE?

If anyone out there wants to get an idea of what is done in medical physics there are two journals to read: (1) Medical Physics, and (2) Physics in Medicine and Biology. There are several others of course, but those are the big ones.

And yes, there are clinical physicists out there who don't publish, but that does not apply to the entire field. They certainly aren't in the majority in the clinics I've worked at.

A medical physicist is first and foremost a physicist.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I bet the physicitst who propsed the 4D name have never truly understood the special theory of relativity.

You are letting your rancor get the best of you, and it's causing you to say ridiculous things.

If there was every any value to this thread, it's long since passed.