Direction of current in a "middle" branch?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining the direction of current in a specific branch of an electrical circuit involving two electromotive forces (emfs). Participants explore the implications of different conditions on current direction, including comparisons of emfs and the application of Kirchhoff's Voltage Law (KVL) and Kirchhoff's Current Law (KCL).

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the direction of current in the middle branch can be determined based on the relative magnitudes of the two emfs: if emf 1 is greater than emf 2, the current flows up; if emf 2 is greater, it flows down; and if they are equal, the current is zero.
  • Others argue that predicting current direction in outer loops is not always straightforward and suggest defining a direction and using KVL or KCL to solve for currents, noting that negative values indicate current flow in the opposite direction.
  • A participant mentions that a clockwise current in the outer loop requires emf 2 to be negative and greater in absolute value than emf 1, raising the question of whether a negative emf indicates a misrepresentation of the battery's orientation in the circuit diagram.
  • There is a suggestion that circuit diagrams are often drawn incorrectly, and participants may need to rely on mathematical analysis to identify errors in their representations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the predictability of current direction in circuits with opposing emfs. While some agree on the general approach to determining current direction, others emphasize the complexity and potential for error in circuit diagrams.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the accuracy of circuit diagrams and the assumptions made regarding the orientation of emfs. The discussion does not resolve whether the proposed conditions for current direction are universally applicable.

DoobleD
Messages
259
Reaction score
20
Consider the following circuit (arrows represent current direction) :

IMG_20151206_152109.jpg


How does one determine the direction of the current in the middle branch ?

Would it be correct to assume that :

- if emf 1 > emf 2, current directionin middle branch is up,
- if emf 2 > emf 1, current direction in middle branch is down,
- if emf 1 = emf 2, current in middle branch is 0 (neither up or down) ?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Since R1 = R3, that is correct.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: DoobleD
.Scott said:
Since R1 = R3, that is correct.

Thanks !
 
You can't always predict which direction the current is going in the outer loops.

What you do is define a direction as +ve. Then write KVC and/or KVL equations (simultaneous equations). Then you solve them to find the current in each branch or loop. If one or more answers turn out to be negative then the current is actually flowing the other way.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: DoobleD
CWatters said:
You can't always predict which direction the current is going in the outer loops.

Even in the case above where the batteries are in "opposite" directions (emf 1 has positive down and emf 2 has positive up) ? How could current flow clockwise (in the outer loop) in such a case ?
 
DoobleD said:
Even in the case above where the batteries are in "opposite" directions (emf 1 has positive up and emf 2 has positive down) ? How could current flow clockwise (in the outer loop) in such a case ?
Write down KVL or KCL and you can actually solve for the conditions where that happens.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: DoobleD
DaleSpam said:
Write down KVL or KCL and you can actually solve for the conditions where that happens.

Ok, I obtain that a clockwise current requires that emf 2 is negative and that its absolute value is superior to the value of emf 1. If that's correct, isn't a negative emf simply mean that the battery has been drawn in the wrong direction on the figure ? Implying that if the figure is correctly drawn correctly, you could actually know the direction of current in the outer loop just by looking at the figure.

Or I simply made maths mistakes. :D

I ended up with the current at R_3 being equal to (emf 1 + emf 2) / (3R). R being the value of one resistor (with R_1 = R_2 = R_3 = R).
 
DoobleD said:
I obtain that a clockwise current requires that emf 2 is negative and that its absolute value is superior to the value of emf 1.
Excellent, that is the correct general approach.

DoobleD said:
If that's correct, isn't a negative emf simply mean that the battery has been drawn in the wrong direction on the figure ? Implying that if the figure is correctly drawn correctly, you could actually know the direction of current in the outer loop just by looking at the figure.
Often circuits are drawn wrong. In fact, many times you draw a circuit where you KNOW that at least one of the things you drew was wrong and you just have to do the math to figure out which one is the wrong one.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: DoobleD
DaleSpam said:
Excellent, that is the correct general approach.

Often circuits are drawn wrong. In fact, many times you draw a circuit where you KNOW that at least one of the things you drew was wrong and you just have to do the math to figure out which one is the wrong one.

Wonderful, thanks !
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 42 ·
2
Replies
42
Views
4K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K