Direction of Friction for Rolling Spheres on Rough Surfaces

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the direction of friction for a smooth spherical body that is rolling on a rough surface, as well as the possibility of achieving pure rolling without friction. Participants explore various scenarios and conditions related to rolling motion, friction, and the transition between sliding and rolling states.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about the direction of friction when a smooth spherical body is rolling on a rough surface.
  • There is a question about whether pure rolling can occur without friction, with some asserting that it is possible under certain conditions.
  • One participant suggests that the initial situation affects the direction of friction, noting that if a ball is sliding, backward friction will help transition it to rolling without slipping.
  • Another participant mentions that if a ball hits the ground while spinning, forward friction will adjust its motion until slipping ceases.
  • Some argue that pure rolling without friction requires specific conditions, such as the relationship between speed and angular speed (v = ωR).
  • There is a perspective that any object rolling without slipping at constant speed experiences zero friction, regardless of how it reached that state.
  • One participant emphasizes the complications that arise when mixing ideal and practical models, suggesting that a very low value of friction is more realistic than zero.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the possibility of pure rolling without friction and the conditions under which it can occur. The direction of friction in rolling scenarios remains a point of inquiry without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of models that assume no friction, indicating that practical scenarios often involve very low friction rather than a complete absence of it. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of rolling motion and frictional forces.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying mechanics, particularly in understanding the dynamics of rolling motion and the role of friction in various scenarios.

SDewan
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Hi all,
Can anyone please help me out with the direction of friction in a case where there is a smooth spherical body pure rolling on a rough surface? What is the direction of friction?
Also, is it possible to have pure rolling without friction?

Thanks
SD
 
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Depends on the inital situation. Most frequent case: if a ball is sliding over a surface, the backwards friction will make it change over to rolling without slipping.

But if it hits the ground spinning like crazy (around a horizontal axis), the forward acting friction will accelerate the motion while adjusting the rate of rotation until there is no more slipping.

And yes: pure rolling without friction is possible. All that is required is ##v = \omega R ## (speed = angular speed times radius)[edit] sorry, missed the 'pure' as in pure rolling (meaning rolling without slipping). Agree with Russ #5.
 
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SDewan said:
Also, is it possible to have pure rolling without friction?
You can always potential run into trouble if you work with models that are a mixture of ideal and practical. If you have 'no friction' then your model is very limited. You have to work with a very low value of friction - not zero.
BvU said:
And yes: pure rolling without friction is possible. All that is required is v=ωRv=ωRv = \omega R (speed = angular speed times radius)
You would need to set up that condition with some external force to produce the rolling.
 
sophiecentaur said:
You can always potential run into trouble if you work with models that are a mixture of ideal and practical. If you have 'no friction' then your model is very limited. You have to work with a very low value of friction - not zero.

You would need to set up that condition with some external force to produce the rolling.
I think life is simpler: any time an object is rolling without slipping at constant speed, the friction force is zero - regardless of how it got to be that way.

If you want to quibble about exactness of such a scenario, roll a ball down a shallow incline. At some point it will reach a terminal velocity, where friction against the surface is exactly zero.
 
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russ_watters said:
I think life is simpler: any time an object is rolling without slipping at constant speed, the friction force is zero - regardless of how it got to be that way.

If you want to quibble about exactness of such a scenario, roll a ball down a shallow incline. At some point it will reach a terminal velocity, where friction against the surface is exactly zero.
You're right . . . . . until you have to deal with yet another question on PF about it. :wink:
 
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