Discuss the World Cup 2010: England vs. USA

[BobG]

the answers are as I can best answer them.

1) Red Card goalie for denying obvious goal scoring opportunity, restart with penalty kick

2) This is perfectly legal because the defender cannot foul his own team. Restart with corner kick.

3) This is technically fixing the match. yellow card the player (if the ref knows the score of game B) for unsporting behavior. indirect kick to other team. This occurred between Austria and Germany. It was aclled the least competitive game of all time.

4) Goal the player is no longer offside as the ball was ahead of them.

1) The foul didn't occur in the penalty area.

2) It's not a foul, but it is misconduct. It's similar to stepping on the back of a bent over player to increase his leap, or having two team mates lift him up. None of those are legal even though they're not fouls.

3) Correct.

4) Correct, but not quite for the right reason. The player was offside when it was last played his team mate and GK never actually played the ball, but the GK had an opportunity to play the ball. They don't emphasize the last very much in referee certification classes, since the situation is so rare that new referees would be more likely to consider a misplay as an opportunity to play the ball that was botched while the whole intent is to prevent stupid situations like the one in the scenario. (i.e. - it's the don't be an idiot and warp the entire game into 'clever' tricks when it's supposed to be about playing better soccer).

Which reminds me of the worst and most stupid thing the US National Team ever did and how badly it affected soccer for the entire nation.

Players constantly position the ball for a free kick with their foot since it seems like the natural thing to do and is a lot easier than bending over. The US National Team came up with the idea that on one of their corner kicks in the 2002 World Cup, the player would nudge the ball out of the corner area and then trot away. Then a second player would trot over to the corner area and suddenly start dribbling the ball toward the goal. The other team would think the first player was just positioning the ball, but then decided to let the second player take the actual corner, when in reality, the first player just a made a really short corner kick making it perfectly legal for the second player to start dribbling.

Unfortunately for the US National Team, the referee thought the same thing the other team did and called the second player for a double touch on a free kick, so the play backfired and the US lost their corner kick opporunity.

None the less, USSF decided they had to back their national team and from then on US referees got the opportunity to interpret as best they could whether a player was merely positioning the ball with their foot or taking one of those 'clever' trick fee kicks... and naturally every youth team in the country has to copy the US National Team.

When this would come up on referee forums, referees all over the world would laugh at US referees. Plus, a disturbingly large number of referees would state how they would 'accidentally' be fooled every time a team tried that trick and call a double touch with some referees going so far as to say they'd caution any player that tried that trick in one of their games. It's the only time I've ever seen so many USSF youth referees just blatanly state they would defy what the USSF told them to do.

I thought it was a really bad situation and one caused by the USSF backing a stupid trick that didn't even work.

 

[D H]

1) Red Card goalie for denying obvious goal scoring opportunity, restart with penalty kick

It's not blatantly obvious from BobG's post, but the misconduct occurred outside of the field of play. Misconduct off the field of play is not a foul. The only possible restarts here are goal kick, corner kick, or dropped ball, depending on where the ball was when the ref whistled for play to stop. The ref can show the keeper a pretty colored card, but this particular misconduct cannot result in penalty kick.

2) This is perfectly legal because the defender cannot foul his own team. Restart with corner kick.

Read Bob's reply in post #95. The player is not fouling his own teammate. He is guilty of misconduct, and he is committing a foul since (a) the misconduct was on the field of play and (b) it prevented an obvious scoring opportunity. This is not a direct free kick type of offense, so it has (almost) the same outcome as an IFK offense outside the penalty box. The result is an IFK at the six yard line, red card for the offending player.I'll take a stab at situation #4, which Bob added to post #86 a couple hours later.

4) And one last youth soccer dumb coach tricks. He drills his team on quick restarts after offside calls (interesting tactic - American youth coaches are so cute). His team pulls off the offside trap, but catches the offense so far offside they don't even bother to chase the ball. It comes to a stop in front of the GK who has come out about 40 yards from her own goal, but she refuses to pick the ball up, since the whole point is to get the quick indirect free kick restart. Finally, after about 20-30 seconds have gone by, one of the players originally caught offside trots down the field to force the issue, except the GK still doesn't pick up the ball. Eventually, the offensive player reaches the ball, dribbles around the GK and down the field to score.

Correct call? Or should it have been offside as soon as the offensive player finally made a play on the ball?

Whoa, Bob! To use a term from another type of football, time out. (Aside: my to-be wife dragged me to what I expected to be dumb*** NASL game back in 1983. The ref, an American football ref, signaled time out American football style at one point in the game. The player with the ball played on and scored a goal because he held the ref in a bit if disdain.)

Back on topic: What call are you talking about, Bob? You didn't specify any call.

If the referee whistled the play dead because of the offside foul, the ball was dead. The ball wasn't in play and the team to put it in play had not yet restarted play. The ball was dead; no goal. By the way, WTF was the ref doing waiting 20-30 seconds for the team to put the ball back into play? Stupid youth soccer refs ... So, the ref waited 20-30 seconds for the right team to put the ball back into play. That never happened. The ball was dead, so no goal, and maybe a card to the keeper for wasting time. That team, not the frustrated team, still has to put the ball back into play from the point at which the offside violation occurred.

On the other hand, if the referee never did whistle the play dead, the ball was alive. Any good youth coach knows to coach the kids to keep on playing until they hear the ref's whistle. That coach will tell the players that some youth refs are truly dumb and do not know the rules of the game. Keep on playing until you hear the whistle. The coach will also tell the players that they don't know they rules as well as they think they do. Keep on playing until you hear the stupid whistle! If the ref did not call the play dead there was no offside foul. It was a figment of everyone's imagination. Assuming the player who finally woke up from the dead and took the ball and scored a goal started this action from behind the midfield line or from behind the second last defender, goal!

 

[BobG]

Back on topic: What call are you talking about, Bob? You didn't specify any call.

If the referee whistled the play dead because of the offside foul, the ball was dead. The ball wasn't in play and the team to put it in play had not yet restarted play. The ball was dead; no goal. By the way, WTF was the ref doing waiting 20-30 seconds for the team to put the ball back into play? Stupid youth soccer refs ... So, the ref waited 20-30 seconds for the right team to put the ball back into play. That never happened. The ball was dead, so no goal, and maybe a card to the keeper for wasting time. That team, not the frustrated team, still has to put the ball back into play from the point at which the offside violation occurred.

On the other hand, if the referee never did whistle the play dead, the ball was alive. Any good youth coach knows to coach the kids to keep on playing until they hear the ref's whistle. That coach will tell the players that some youth refs are truly dumb and do not know the rules of the game. Keep on playing until you hear the whistle. The coach will also tell the players that they don't know they rules as well as they think they do. Keep on playing until you hear the stupid whistle! If the ref did not call the play dead there was no offside foul. It was a figment of everyone's imagination. Assuming the player who finally woke up from the dead and took the ball and scored a goal started this action from behind the midfield line or from behind the second last defender, goal!

The referee never stopped play so there never was a restart. The ball was still in play and just happened to roll to a stop with the GK refusing to touch the ball. The last player to ever touch the ball was a player from the attacking team and the players in question were offside when their team mate last touched it. They just got tired of waiting, so one of the players decided to force the action. The GK was expecting the referee to call offside as soon as the 'offside' player finally involved himself in the play. In this case, the referee decided the GK had ample opportunity to dribble the ball around in circles about 25 times and then flick the ball up onto her nose if she wanted. He correctly decided an offside call at that point violated the laws of common sense, regardless of the technical details (except the correct technical interpretation is that the defensive player had an opportunity to play the ball whether they actually played it or not).

Just as I mentioned in my other reply, you just don't hear them bringing this situation up with new referees since they're more likely to violate the laws of common sense the other way and ignore offside calls that should be made.

 

[D H]

When I took referee training (years ago, admittedly) they gave us all kinds of bizarre situations to deal with. The one thing the trainers did do was to make the referees' calls in those situations very clear. My complaint regarding you situation #4 is that you asked us whether it was a correct call, but you did not specify what the call was. Apparently the referee's call was "goal". Like I said, "goal". If the ref never signaled the ball dead then the ball wasn't dead. That the players assumed the ball was dead is irrelevant.

 

[Monique]

Before the site crashes again:

Argentina - South Korea (2 - 0)
Greece - Nigeria (1 - 1)
France - Mexico (1 - 0)

I thought the red card for the South African keeper was a terrible decision of the referee.

 

[zomgwtf]

Argentina - South Korea (1-0)
Greece - Nigeria (1-0)
France - Mexico (1-1)

 

[BobG]

When I took referee training (years ago, admittedly) they gave us all kinds of bizarre situations to deal with. The one thing the trainers did do was to make the referees' calls in those situations very clear. My complaint regarding you situation #4 is that you asked us whether it was a correct call, but you did not specify what the call was. Apparently the referee's call was "goal". Like I said, "goal". If the ref never signaled the ball dead then the ball wasn't dead. That the players assumed the ball was dead is irrelevant.

Yeah, I was just clarifying that your second paragraph was the actual situation. The ref never stopped play even though the GK expected him to. (In other words, he didn't stop play and let the GK stand around delaying the restart of play).

Lots of bizarre situations in youth soccer that you'd never believe would really happen unless you were there.

I reffed a U7 game where the losing coach (by about 10-0) was about ready to take my head off after the game for missing every single offside call in the game when he'd spent the entire week teaching his kids the offside trap. 1) They didn't start calling offside until U10's where I lived but him not knowing that didn't shock as much as 2) How the heck did he teach the offside trap to U7's?!

 

[Dadface]

Argentina-S korea (2,0)
Greece-Nigeria(1,1)
France,Mexico(1,0)

 

[BobG]

Argentina-S korea (1-1)
Greece-Nigeria(0-2)
France,Mexico(0-1)

 

[estro]

Argentina - South Korea (2 - 0)
Greece - Nigeria (0 - 1)
France - Mexico (1 - 0)

 

[BobG]

I thought the red card for the South African keeper was a terrible decision of the referee.

Yah. It definitely wasn't denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity, so it had to be serious foul play. Except the keeper's feet never left the ground and the attacker barely tripped over the keeper's foot, which was on the ground. I wouldn't have called a foul at all, let alone red card the keeper. Ref made the call from almost directly behind the attacker, so I think he reacted to the attacker's tumble more than actually saw the contact. He should have looked to the assistant ref, except European referees don't use their ARs as much as American refs do?

Maybe because the AR missed the offside that put the attacker in position for the play to occur in the first place? Attacker was onside when pass was made, but pass deflected off of defender, off a second attacker before going through to the attacker 'fouled' by the keeper. Attacker was moving on the first pass. Bang-bang play easy to miss, but...


Two blown calls in less than a second for that crew. I'll be surprised if they referee any games in the knockout round. (There's 'competition' to see which refs advance as well as which teams advance).

It's also good if the referee remembers which pocket he keeps his red card in. (Nothing like refereeing in the world's biggest tournament in a world of youtube.)

Actually, it looks like he's talking to his AR on the headset and the pocket is visual confirmation of which color to show. Old referee trick before the days of headsets. Entire crew knows which pocket has which color and going to the pocket and looking to the AR either confirms both are on same page or that the AR likes the other color better. Looking at the center ref's positioning on the play, it could have been AR's opinion that resulted in the red, which means two blown calls just for the AR in less than one second.

You can almost imagine the AR's thought process. He anticipates the pass and already looking to developing attacker/keeper confrontation, ball doesn't come through as fast as he anticipated and "uh, oh, who'd that hit on the way through" and suddenly the play happens just as he's trying to reconstruct the path that ball took through the crowd. You got to love it to put yourself in those sorts of situations.

You get both of those calls right as an AR and every ref in the world thinks you're the equivalent of Michael Jordan. Miss them and you're that other guy on the Michael Jordan posters - the guy Jordan's embarrassing.


Red card
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEx2CEQNIF0

 

[Gokul43201]

I'm not going to be able to post everyday, so am dropping out of the game. I'll try and maintain the scoreboard as much as possible, but will occasionally need others to chip in.

zomg, thanks for taking care of it the last couple days.

 

[D H]

Argentina - South Korea (2 - 1)
Greece - Nigeria (0 - 1)
France - Mexico (1 - 1)

 

[Gokul43201]

So ARG scored 2 legal goals and KOR scored 2 as well.

 

[zomgwtf]

So ARG scored 2 legal goals and KOR scored 2 as well.

Argentina scored 3 with a hat trick to Higuain. South Korea scored 2 with own goal to Park. Final score 4-1

 

[zomgwtf]

++ Greece came back to win 2-1!

 

[zomgwtf]

Lol, crap. I editted this post by mistake instead of quoting it so all the chart for the 16th is gone because I don't feel like redoing it.

 

[Monique]

Good game by the Mexicans, poor game by the French!

Germany - Serbia (1 - 0)
Slovenia - USA (1 - 1)
England - Algeria (2 - 0)

 

[Dadface]

Germany-Serbia(3,1)
Slovenia-USA (1,1)
England-Algeria(2,0)

 

[Borg]

Lets see how accurate my complete lack of football knowledge is.
Germany - Serbia (2 - 1)
Slovenia - USA (0 - 1)
England - Algeria (2 - 0)

 

[BobG]

Germany - Serbia (3 - 0)
Slovenia - USA (0 - 1)
England - Algeria (2 - 0)

 

[D H]

Back to Bob's entangled rules thread:

There's a reason both of the last games in each group have to start at the same time. Everyone hopes to prevent the fiasco of the West German-Austria match in the 1982 World Cup in which both clubs kicked the ball around the field aimlessly for the last 80 minutes of the match.

The June 22 Mexico v. Uruguay match might well be a replay of that West German-Austria match. A tie between Mexico and Uruguay means both teams advance, with Uruguay the #1 team and Mexico #2.

 

[fluidistic]

Since France is almost out of the game I now fully root for Argentina (I live here since 2006). I'll bet on them to reach the final.

 

[Gokul43201]

Argentina scored 3 with a hat trick to Higuain.

The middle one of those was clearly off-sides - hence, the 2 "legal" goals!

 

[Kurdt]

England shall clearly win 10-0 .

And no I'm not mad.

 

[estro]

Germany - Serbia (2 - 0)
Slovenia - USA (1 - 1)
England - Algeria (2 - 0)

 

[BobG]

Back to Bob's entangled rules thread:



The June 22 Mexico v. Uruguay match might well be a replay of that West German-Austria match. A tie between Mexico and Uruguay means both teams advance, with Uruguay the #1 team and Mexico #2.

A tie and Mexico gets to face Argentina in the next round instead of South Korea. And nobody makes up a difference of 4 in goal differential in the last group game! I think the benefits of going for it outweigh the risks.

A difference of 6 in goal differential, maybe, but surely not 4!

Hmm, come to think of it, that was just a year ago in South Africa in the Confederation Cup.

Yeah, both teams might have noted the bizarre end to last year's group stage.

 

[D H]

Germany - Serbia (2 - 0)
Slovenia - USA (0 - 1)
England - Algeria (2 - 0)

 

[zomgwtf]

Germany - Serbia (3-0)
Slovenia - USA (0-1)
England - Algeria (2-0)

 

[zomgwtf]

Results:
France - Mexico (0-3)
Greece - Nigeria (2-1)
Argentina - South Korea (4-1)

Scoring Table

Member      June 17 Score      Cumulative Score
-----------------------------------------------
zomgwtf           2                   8
brothertime       2                   4
D H               1                   12
cristo            1                   11
Bob               1                   10
Monique           1                   9
estro             1                   9
Dadface           1                   6
kakarotyjn        -                   4
rootX             -                   4
Gokul             -                   8  
jreelawg          -                   1
lewdtenant        -                   1

Hmm I've noticed a few people appear to have dropped out.